Hello everyone! My name is Ladek and my guest for today is Ann Herrmann-Nehdi, who is the Chief Thought Leader and Chair of Herrmann International. She is an Author, researcher and keynoter, whose work is specialized on the practical application of neuroscience and cognitive diversity to human and organization development and improvement.
Ann has several widely viewed TEDx talks and is the co-author of The Whole Brain Business Book, now in its second edition. Her current research includes workplace resilience and the brain, the future of work and the development of women leaders in the workplace.
In this ‘very flowing’ conversation Ann and I talk about
00:00 › Start
02:27 › LITFOW—The core concept of "Learning In The Flow Of Work" and its significance in today's quickly changing work environments
04:03 › INSTINCT—Ann illustrates the natural human instinct to seek instant solutions and learning opportunities in everyday life challenges
15:43 › ACTION—We shift the discussion to the applicability of learning in the flow of work across different teams and its customization to fit diverse learning needs
29:21 › CONTEMPLATION—We end our conversation contemplating the balance between immediate, on-the-job learning and the necessity of taking time out for deeper, more immersive learning experiences, especially when considering significant pivots in one's career path.
Subscribe for the latest news, practice and thought leadership at eLearnMagazine.com
Hello everyone! My name is Ladek and my guest for today is Ann Herrmann-Nehdi, who is the Chief Thought Leader and Chair of Herrmann International. She is an Author, researcher and keynoter, whose work is specialized on the practical application of neuroscience and cognitive diversity to human and organization development and improvement.
Ann has several widely viewed TEDx talks and is the co-author of The Whole Brain Business Book, now in its second edition. Her current research includes workplace resilience and the brain, the future of work and the development of women leaders in the workplace.
In this ‘very flowing’ conversation Ann and I talk about
00:00 › Start
02:27 › LITFOW—The core concept of "Learning In The Flow Of Work" and its significance in today's quickly changing work environments
04:03 › INSTINCT—Ann illustrates the natural human instinct to seek instant solutions and learning opportunities in everyday life challenges
15:43 › ACTION—We shift the discussion to the applicability of learning in the flow of work across different teams and its customization to fit diverse learning needs
29:21 › CONTEMPLATION—We end our conversation contemplating the balance between immediate, on-the-job learning and the necessity of taking time out for deeper, more immersive learning experiences, especially when considering significant pivots in one's career path.
Subscribe for the latest news, practice and thought leadership at eLearnMagazine.com
This is the eLearn podcast. If you're passionate about the future of learning, you're in the right place. The expert guests on this show provide insights into the latest strategies, practices,
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Learn more at Open LMS .net Hi there, my name's Ladic, and my guest for today is Ann Herrmann-Nehdi, who is the Chief Thought Leader and Chair of Herman International. She is an author,
researcher, and keynoter whose work is specialized on the practical application of neuroscience and cognitive diversity to human and organizational development and improvement. Anne has served as the Chief Thought Leader of Herman International.
widely viewed TEDx talks and is the all co -author of the whole brain business book, the second edition. Her current research includes workplace resilience and the brain, the future of work,
and the development of work women leaders in the workplace. In this very flowing conversation, Anne and I talk about the core concept of learning and the flow of work and its significance in today's quick changing work environments.
And then illustrates the next step. human instinct to seek instant solutions and learning opportunities in everyday life challenges. We then shift the conversation to discuss the applicability of learning in the flow of work across different teams and its customization to fit diverse learning needs.
And then finally, we wrap up our conversation contemplating the balance between immediate on -the -job learning and the necessity of taking time out for deeper, more immersive learning experiences. especially when considering significant pivots in one's career path.
And remember, we record this podcast live so that we can interact with you, our listeners, in real time. So don't be surprised when you hear Ann and I answer questions and react to comments as they come in. If you'd like to join the fun every week on LinkedIn,
on Facebook, on YouTube, on X, just come over to elearnmagazine .com and subscribe. Now, I give Ann Herrmann-Nehdi. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the eLearn podcast.
My name's Ladek, as you've heard. But as I like to tell everyone, you're at the start of 2024. Wow, we're starting 2024. That's fantastic. The show is not about me. It is about my guest here today,
Anne Herman -Neddy. How are you today? I am doing great. Thank you. You're doing great. But as we talked about in the green room before we started this, there's a bit of a conundrum around you.
you or a potential conundrum around you. So tell us, where do we find you sitting? I am in western North Carolina where storms are coming on through. So if there's a little bit of rumble on the background,
that might be what's going on. And hopefully, this will not interrupt our conversation today. Yeah. No, I mean, I want to go one level deeper there. So is it just rain or in Northern Kelet,
do you get ice and that kind of stuff as well? well? >> We sometimes do, but not today. So the good news is we're going to get rain only, the bad news is we'll get a lot of wind too.
So we'll see, we'll see what that ends up being, right? >> Well, happily you look like you were in a nice, cozy room slash office space. Fantastic. I'd love for you to introduce yourself.
Tell us about the work that you do, the organization that you represent or come from that you've been working with. with for forever, and sort of what your focus is. Great.
So I am chair and chief thought leader. I always think it's fun to have a title like that that people wonder like, what is that anyway? I guess I do a lot of thinking of Herman and we are a global organization that has been studying the brain and how we think for close to 40 years and we we we help individuals,
teams and organizations bring their whole brain to work. In other words, how do I take all of the thinking I have available to me as an individual and as a team and apply that in a way that gets me the best possible results and we often get in our own way.
So we've got assessments and tools and lots of learning solutions that we provide people in their day -to -day workflow and it's part of that focus that brought me to to learning in the flow of work,
because at the end of the day, we're thinking every day. It's not like we go off for a program and then learn to think and then come back and try to apply it. This is ongoing. It has to be -- these have to be tools that we use in our day -to -day work.
So that's really what brought me to this topic a few years ago when we were looking at, how do we do that? Yeah. For sure. 100%. So what -- the question that we had here for this show,
and everybody saw it in the splash screen in the beginning, there's like, what can you define? What exactly is learning the flow of work? And take the sub question to, why do I care? Why do I care?
- That is a very important sub question. Okay, so learning in the flow of work, and some people like acronym, so it's LIFO, UCLIF, OW, and lots of places. So that's what that means. It was actually coined by Josh Berson in 2018.
- Mm -hmm. he started to see this emerging as a trend. And it's really pretty simple. It's when you get the content and information that you need to complete something exactly when you need it,
not four days before, a year before, or 10 minutes after. Sure. It's integrating that learning seamlessly into your day -to -day workflow.
so that it doesn't interrupt you, but it helps you move forward. And when you think about so much of the learning that we've done throughout the course of our lives, both at school and in the workplace,
we sort of think of it as, okay, I'm gonna stop working and I'm gonna go learn. Now I'm gonna, you know, I'll do my learning and then I'm gonna go back to work. And it's not highly integrated. So instead,
instead of courses, think of resources, right? So this idea of how do I make these resources available? And I guess my one of the reasons, you know, we care is let me just ask you a question.
So have you ever been in a situation where let's say at home something breaks and you want to try to fix it yourself? What do you do? What is your first reflex when you've got something that's,
you know, I had this happen with my washing machine, not too long ago. ago and the weekend and I needed to do something. And so what do you think I did? What would you normally do? Let me Google that for you.
All right. And then you find a whole slew of things. You play a video, you say, oh, no, I prefer a transcript, whatever it is, you go through and you start and you get it right away. And you don't have to say,
gee, let me think about going to a washing machine repair course in two weeks. That's not going to get me what I need." And it's certainly not what any of us necessarily want to do unless that's our business.
So for me, this is really learning in the flow of life. That's what we're all doing. We're all doing this. I'll give you an example that happened just over the holiday season here. That was really interesting.
My middle son has a computer, and I'm embarrassed to say that. say this. I'm embarrassed to say this because this is going to call me out so bad.
Like more than a year ago, one key on his computer broke. Everyone in this podcast, I live in the country of Mexico.
So, you know, it's not, I mean, there's plenty of resources here. We could go get it fixed. But it's a little expensive, blah, blah, blah. When we went back to the States over the holidays, I'm like, okay, we're finally going to get this thing fixed.
And we went out and like, you know, people started giving us quotes about $200, $500. And I'm like, are you kidding me? Is the key on a keyboard? And so finally after a year, I just Googled,
you know, how do you fix this key? Turns out I bought a replacement key for $10 and it took us literally 45 seconds. And like the walkthrough was, but there's that's my story.
You're like, like learning the flow. flow and he did it right This is my 12 year old. And so he learned how to fix his keyboard right there. Bam. I love that There you go over to you. So learning that so that's really I think the reason now when you think of work though We don't we we don't necessarily think that way our assumption is well,
you know I'm gonna have to go get like your kind of assumption was how do I go find somebody who knows how to do this or somebody who Can teach me how to do this or whatever additional steps And when we can't have it instantly,
we tend to put it off and maybe miss that opportunity for learning or miss that opportunity at my key. - Well, I like that. I think that you've hit that, that's a key thing for me right there. I procrastinate because I was like,
I don't want to spend the money. And I don't, you know, and it's going to be like, I have to break my day up and I have to schedule a meeting and take the thing. And then my kid maybe doesn't have his computer for a couple of days. But, you know, there was a whole bunch of...
possibilities that were going to put wrinkles in my life, right? Well, and also just, you know, I think about this in a work context. So if you're trying to do your job and you don't know how to do that and you don't have what you need to get it done,
I mean, you don't have to be, you know, a statistician to figure out what that might mean in terms of productivity, right? So, I think one of the things that I think is really important is that you know, if you makes this even more relevant today is the degree of change that's happening.
So it's not like we're kind of just all sort of leisurely, like our lives are staying the same. And, you know, so we're finding ourselves in a mode where the pace of change is so insanely rapid that,
you know, a lot of the data out there, there's crazy data that talks about how, you know, I think McKinsey said something like, like, I think it was like 375 million people are gonna need to learn new job skills by 2030.
So everybody's learning like every minute of every day, right? And at work, that's kind of just part of the deal. It's not like we have the luxury of maybe signing up for a course in a month to be able to learn how to do that.
And again, our personal expectations are, and why would I have to do that anyway? Like, you know, why would you make me do that? So the-- this notion of constant change,
I like to look up change in the dictionary and you know, it says to make things different and then it says to put fresh clothes on. Well, we're in this constant put fresh clothes on world that we're in, we're just constantly changing.
And so I think that's an important piece. And then there's another reason why we should care. And that is that most people want to learn and grow, right? And so there's been some really interesting interesting research that says,
you know That I think Burson actually did some of this research initially that if people are learning on the job they're 47 % less likely to be stressed 39 % more productive in terms of how they feel unsuccessful and then 23 % ready year to take on additional responsibilities and And finally 21 % more happy and confident.
So we want want people learning at work, right? And we all kind of want to do it and so on and so forth. But we don't really, first of all, allocate the time. So I read the other day something like people have less than a half hour dedicated to learning per week.
But I don't think that's more that formal training thing. I think most of us are learning all the time. - Yeah, I was just, hi there. I'm sorry to break into the show right now, but if you're enjoying this show, if you are challenged,
if you're inspired, if you're learning something, if you think that you're going to be able to get something out of this to put into your practice, do me a quick favor. Pause right now and just hit subscribe on your podcast player right now. It doesn't matter which one,
just hit subscribe, because that way it'll make sure that you never miss an episode in the future. Thanks. Now, back to the show. Say, where is that half hour? Because I am kind of running through a roll of X in my head right now,
and I know of zero people who are like, Hey, on Thursdays I block off a half hour to learn like I don't know anybody if I'm completely honest. Yeah And so we're not we're not allocating the time so it's got to be built in or it just doesn't happen,
right? Um, and you know, I you know, everybody I know talks about that That's constant onslaught of back -to -back meetings and this and that and so, you know Um, if we're not building in the time and you know in a half hour,
even if we did build in a half hour hour I mean that is like you know it's like what that's like one percent of our I mean is ridiculous so part of what this is all about and we had a situation with a with a large organization that I've been working with that needed to figure out it's a it's a fellowship program and they needed to figure out how to get these people are devoting their time and energy to this big
important project learning learning all the time, because they just did not have the resources of the time to do it. And we'd been helping them with their thinking and how understanding how they think and giving them tools to do that.
And they just weren't going to get them because they weren't available to them. They were kind of over here, over there, and they've been part-- So it's like, OK, so where do they live? We asked ourselves,
where do they live? And where are they spending time? And, like many organizations. everybody was living in Microsoft Teams. So we said,
"Huh." So I wonder if we could put our stuff inside of Teams rather than making people leave Teams to go find it. And that suddenly became like a, "Huh." So we built an app inside of Microsoft Teams called Stop and Think where they could go get the date on their team,
look at the tools that they could use to set the app up. improve what they were doing at the moment, remind themselves of something that maybe was a blind spot for them. So it was really kind of an aha moment for us,
which is that we had all these years sort of said, well, it's right there, it's right there, it's right there. Well, no, really where they needed it was literally where they're living. And somebody said the other day where people are apathetic.
apathetic with all of our like constant apps that we're in and you don't wanna have to go from app to app to app to app to app all day, right? - It's like ultimately, and we've had other people on the show here just talk about how much friction is there between you and that learning nugget or that aha moment or whatever it is,
right? And even moving to a new app or moving to a new application or just flipping back and forth or something like that. and Teams and that other thing.
Our organization, we go into another completely different system in order to have performance reviews and those kinds of things. Like that's, as soon as I click on that button, I'm like, here goes an hour. You know what I mean?
I know that, I know that. - And it's more for you to learn. So it's like, okay, no, in Slack, I have to do this, no, but in Teams, I need to do that. But, you know, and so part of that also, increases the learning burden.
It increases the cognitive load that we've got, and we don't have unlimited brain resources. So if we're wearing ourselves down just moving from app to app, that's not helpful.
So I think part of what I like to think of learning in the flow of work is it's really just enough just in time just for me. In other words,
I've got a need. I'm in the moment. I need to be able to, you know, solve a problem and I can get it right there, right? And so, and it's just enough. It's not a three hour course that I have to like download and watch.
It's something that can, I can, you know, easily kind of go through so I get enough to solve the problem. And it's just for me. And it's not something, and I don't know how many times you've been in a situation where,
and this happened to me recently, I won't, I won't. say more about what it was, but I was in a last to review a learning program, and I got into that learning program, and the way this thing was designed, and I just like,
I thought to myself, how am I ever gonna get through this thing? Because it was really not designed in a way that I like to learn, right? So I got through it, I did get through it, but it was kind of one of those things,
I don't know if you've ever experienced that or have experienced that recently, but you go into a learning thing and you're kind of going like. "Huh, why is this so hard?" Right? So you want it to be as used as learner friendly in terms of how you've designed it with lots of options as possible.
Well, I'll give you an example, another example from my children. Again, my eldest son is now eligible to, everyone watch out, he's eligible to drive a car, right? Oh, that's a little scary for him.
But a part of that process is, you know, where he'll be be registering the state of Colorado, is that you have to take an online driver's course, which is, and here's the thing, it's not about passing, the interesting thing,
because it's the way a government regulation works, it's not about, do you have the knowledge? It's not about, can you pass the test? It's about, did you spend 30 hours in the course?
And so the number of times he came to me tearing his hair, I was saying, I can't click next because the 32nd paragraph that I read, I still have to stay on this page for five minutes because it has to be 30 hours." It just blew me away.
Absolutely blew me away. There's an example of learning that's not designed for learning. It's designed for having a butt in a seat for a certain amount of time. But it was a great learning moment for us because then I explained,
"Hey, look, there's all kinds of different levels of learners and even English language." ability and understanding of all that stuff, right? So we have to look for a common denominator in that particular situation.
But yeah, and I think we saw this through COVID too. And what was happening, you know, during the pandemic, right, where suddenly many people had to learn in very different modalities, right? And I think it was a big aha moment for a lot of a lot of schools,
a lot of organizations, a lot of learners, where they kind of went like, I'm supposed to do. do what here, right, and have that sense of energy and frustration. So I think that that simple idea, like Jay to the third power,
right, just in time, just enough just for me is kind of my simple mantra that I keep in mind when I look at this. But it does require, it requires a few things when you start thinking about this because this is a very big system change for most organizations.
It's a complete rethink of this system. you know, kind of what we do. The first thing that I think most organizations need to do, one of my big learnings is you've got to be very close to what somebody is doing.
You've got to be learning and development has to be close to the business enough to understand what people are doing in the flow of war. So understand what they need. - So this was, you kind of have stolen my thunder 'cause this was my next question was what's your,
you know, there is the recommendation when you're working with an organization, another client or whatever, I'd love to hear an example or two of much like all politics is local. Is all learning in my team?
Does it always go down to that, like, "Hey, here's my cohort that I'm working with on a daily basis and that's where the learning should start or be designed," or like that? Or do I have that wrong? No,
I think, so I think there's some things that we know are consistent across organizations, right? From team to team to team to team, like major issues. And I was thinking about this the other day and some of the places where so often,
like look at onboarding, and we've been working on an onboarding program. And so often what onboarding is about, so onboarding is usually org -wide, right? It's a pretty much,
and then there might be something for specific function or specific team, right? So you've got this, and talk about learning stuff that you don't need in the moment. like you read through these policies. I mean, all the stuff that you'll never remember,
right? So boy, is that an opportunity to kind of skinny that down and start thinking about that the first nine months rather than the first nine days or nine, you know, whatever it might be to actually provide that.
So I believe that there are some things that are universal, right? There are some things that are universal, but it is what may not be true is that that whoever's designing the learning may not truly understand,
and this is something that we learned, what the reality of that person is in their day -to -day workflow and how that learning is going to either build into that or really interrupt it.
And so as you look at, you know, part of what this means is really just sort of stepping closer to the world of work and not sort of thinking only about content. So for those of us who do learning design, we think a lot lot about the content,
not important the content is, and how are we going to deliver that content and so on and so forth. But it's that moment of contact between learner and content and what's going on in that world. And just as you were saying,
like what we will do in life is we'll just lean into the keyboard and we'll just start Googling, right? We don't, and the moment of need is something that's very obvious to us.
I think from a learning design perspective, I think we're going to be able to do that. I think we're going to be able to do that. I think we're going to be able to do that. that moment of need is really important because otherwise you can sort of set it up and get it all there and then it's either not accessible.
So I think one of the things that is really important is looking at that issue of integration accessibility. I talked about our putting, you know, stop and think into Microsoft Teams, but making sure that it's in a place and in a flow,
a workflow. And so when we learn that, about, you know, folks in teams saying, "Look, if we're going to be working on our team, we're in teams." So, you know, when we're going to, I'm going to set up a conversation. How do I understand how that person is thinking so I can prepare that conversation with that other individual?
Well, let's make it super easy for them to do that right then and there. And ideally, not have to learn how to do it, but have it so obvious that it's right there so I could kind of click on through.
And it just just seems like it's part of my day -to -day. The other thing I think that's important is this notion of having it on demand so that if you don't know exactly what moments these things are gonna happen,
and that will vary from team to team, that you can get it when you need it, right? So it's available. So it may not be exactly right there in the absolute flow of work because it's not something...
you need all the time, but when you need it, you know exactly how to get it and you can apply it right away. And so this notion of having the right things on demand, designing it in a way that it's right at your fingertips,
it's not complicated to figure out, it's not a burden for me to figure out how I'm supposed to learn, like you described with your son, like I get into this and then, what am I supposed to do here? Where am I supposed to go?
Or I've got to change, apps and all that kind of stuff. So that notion of just making it super available and on demand so that, you know, I don't have to find the time or attend a course.
It's there when I need it is something that, again, from a design perspective, you know, and maybe this is, these are little micro learning pieces that I can put together that are available. And if I want to do something longer,
I can download that. But I don't know what I'm going to do with that. But I also have the option of doing these little, you know, bursts of learning that are just exactly, you know, I'm a manager. I've done some feedback training.
I've got a session I know that's going to be tough with one of my direct reports. I'm kind of dreading it. And I'm thinking, Oh my God, I don't know if I can remember that feedback model. All I really need is a prompt to remind me of what that is,
right? So I, and I can go get it and I could grab it and I can do a very quick piece there. We talked a little bit about customization and I think customization is super important in terms of how we think about,
and I think that's mostly options, really making it so that, and I was talking earlier about going online and Googling, I'm one of those people who'd rather read a transcript, right? I'm just like, I don't really sit there and listen to this person going,
and now there's this and that. And if I need to see it, I'll scoot ahead. ahead and I'll lock it but I want to skim because I'm a fast reader skim the transcript find where I need to be other people it's like they don't even they don't even know transcripts there they're going to click on the video and that's it you know um some people want closed caption whatever it is so that idea of having options um and
making it so that I can kind of feel like it fits me we can't do everything for everybody's different you know preferences but I think there's a lot that you can do by just thinking about about it,
just like reflecting on what might, what are some of the options we might have. And then the other thing I've seen happen is I think learning and development needs to figure out how they can really be great curators,
you know, and put things together in a way that I don't have to look in 15 places for it. I've seen so many organizations where they have, well, I've got, we've got their RLMS over here and you can go there for that.
But then we've got this other one. like intranet thing where you go get that kind of room. But if you think you have to go back over there. So that notion of, you know, really curating thoughtfully and having that one stop shop so that I know where to go.
And again, I'm not thinking too hard. It's because, you know, we won't do it. If that friction that you mentioned earlier is so real, we'll sit there and say, okay, what's the cost of my my,
you know, like maybe just trying to figure it out by myself versus my spending the next half hour trying to get into that thing. And, you know, when you start to go, eh, you know, and maybe you choose to not even bother looking at it.
And that's like an incredibly wasted resource. So I think that those are some of the things that I'm seeing happening in organizations that, you know, you're focusing on accessibility, making sure it's on demand,
that you've curated it and put it in a place that's... people can find, right? And that it's customized, or at least it feels customized. This feels like this was something that somebody thought about it, rather than just forcing me through this very cumbersome process,
which is kind of what I went through not too long ago. And I was sitting there thinking like, I could really help these folks. I just wish I wish they understood what a challenge it was.
was. So I think that that's interesting. And we also have with AI. - Aha. - Everybody is talking about. - You said it first, not me. - I knew it was coming up. So I figured I'd jump right in there.
I think we have a whole new world of opportunity in terms of learning and support that can work really effectively. I think we're in the very, very, you know,
somebody was saying to me, "Remember when the internet first got built." launched and that, but this is where we're at with AI. Like we're just in that place where it's like, oh, this is a browser and oh, what is that?
Right, so we're not there yet. But I think there is, I think we will definitely see AI helping people, helping organizations and people identify those moments of learning,
those teachable moments, and then figuring out and delivering targeted just in time. content for specific challenges and opportunities.
And we're not there yet, but I do think that that's a huge opportunity. So you're seeing AI coaches and tutors pop up in school systems. You're seeing like the Khan Academy using it in ways that is really interesting.
And so it's like that idea that I have this. I have like somebody said to me, well, I actually AI is my intern. So I use AI as my intern to go out there and. kind of take care of some of that other stuff.
Well, at the AI and learning summit that we've been doing over the last sort of six months, eight months, one of the last presentations we had in November was at Pennsylvania State University,
where they have a live teaching assistant, you know, is just is chat GPT and they've created a model. And this is not unique to them, right? But that was that was our presentation. And it was amazing.
what they're learning, what they're not learning, how they're refining it, and how it's just, it's what we've heard about AI. It's only going to get smarter, right? It's as dumb as it ever is going to be right now. And so I'm interested in when it comes to the personal tutors and or a personal tutor,
that personalization piece, how many teachers I've talked to, especially in the K through 12 space that are saying like, yeah, but it's not a person. Like what do you do when you don't have a person there? And that's a really interesting concept.
I wanna call out, we have a comment that came in from an anonymous user, it doesn't give us their name unfortunately, but they're saying that they're not sure if it's considered a right, as in like a human,
right? But given the pace of the work environment and technology, it seems like what we've been talking about here, it's a necessity, right? Learning in the flow of work is kind of a necessity. - I don't think we have any. choice I think actually and I think what's exciting for me is somebody who's like been working in the learning space for most of my career You know,
this always sort of seemed like a nice to have right? It was kind of like yeah, you know But when budgets got cut we all know what would happen Like, you know, the one would go we get cut very very quickly right was the learning and development budget At this point,
this is not a nice to have in my view And and I think I think both learners and organizations are waking up to the fact that if we're not continuously learning,
we will see a decline in our ability to compete, that's quite rapid. And that's true for individuals who are in the job market, as well as companies who've got people working there,
and I'm excited to see that learners are more and more... demanding of the fact that they need access to the right stuff.
They don't always feel empowered. They, most of the time, one of the biggest complaints I hear from people around learning. So you say to them, so what's your biggest challenge when it comes to learning?
What do you think people will say is their biggest challenge during the war? - Finding the time. - Yeah. So that is the number one, even I saw a study the other day of L and D professionals,
learning and development professionals, they said the biggest challenge for them to do learning was time. And I'm thinking, okay, so this is a universal problem. So I do think that there's a mindset shift that we need.
- 100%. - Yeah, this comes from, let's think about it. Like when we started our conversation talking about it, you know, we used to go to school. and then we would like stop learning and go home or we would go to,
you know, go to training and then go back to work. This mindset of it's kind of I'm in or I'm out. This is, that's just not the way our brains work. I mean, our research shows that where our brains are constantly learning all of the time.
So this idea of compartmentalizing it and being able to kind of, you know, slot it in. And so, you know, I do believe that one of the things of the things that we're going to see happen eventually,
but organizations that are really smart are doing this sooner rather than later, is that they are creating a context in an environment where people feel it's safe for them to say, look, I got to go learn this,
I need to, you know, that they can build that into their work day without feeling guilty about it or feeling like they're wasting time or they're taking time away from work. Learning is part of the work. work. But it's,
we're not there yet. We are not there yet. And I think a lot of individuals feel, they almost feel like guilty about it. It's like, well, I'm gonna go off and I'm gonna do this. And when in fact it's like what I need to get my job done,
they don't wanna let their manager know and so on and so forth. So I'm hoping that our current circumstances where change is such a forcing function that our mindset will shift and we'll start to see.
organizations wake up to the fact that they need to plan. A manager needs to say, "I know that my team needs to spend this amount of their time every week doing the learning they need to do to stay ahead." And years ago,
we used to hear about Google taking people that one day to go off and explore or whatever. I mean, that was a long time ago, but the idea behind it, which is that we're intentionally building in that time,
is I think gonna be essential for people to be able to survive in today's environment. So, and it's actually, as we said earlier, this is, it's like,
you feel good when you've learned. I mean, people feel happier, they feel more successful, they feel like they're growing, they love your company more, because they feel like they're actually, you know, going to feel like they're getting something out.
of their day to day work. So it's actually a really good decision to make. It's just not part of our standard mindset when it comes to work. And I think I have to change. So final question for you,
and I hope it's not too much of a curveball, but on the spectrum, as we're talking about our personal growth and our ability to stay competitive and are staying relevant.
relevant, there are many times when we are gonna wanna make a real big shift, right? I'm gonna wanna move from sales to support. I'm gonna wanna pivot in my career. I'm gonna wanna,
you know, move to a different company. In your opinion, when, or maybe we don't, do we move from being able to learn in the flow of work to saying,
all right, I actually need to pause and really sort of, of make a big move like you that's my question. So I think learning in the flow of work doesn't replace deep immersive learning or when you take a stop you like we like to call the stop and think moment where you say wait a minute okay I have got to and you know I've got to I've got there's a there's a lot that I need to learn in a very short period of
time and it has nothing to do with the flow of my work at all so that's is a decision. We see people make that decision all the time. You know,
I was just talking to somebody on our team who is moving from finance to HR, right? And she said, so I know that the first, you know,
the first three months of my job is just learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn. Like I'm doing, sure I'm gonna try to do everything I can, but there's just, it's... I feel like I've stepped into a different planet,
but you know, all the acronyms are different, everything's different. And she's excited, but she also needs to be able to stop and take that moment and say, how much do I need to learn and how do I build this in and how do I make it okay that I've got some basic training that I need to do here.
So I think it's a very healthy thing to do. We know from all of our research that... that in many instances, people do get to a point where they feel like, okay, is this all there is?
I wanna be able to expand my thinking way beyond the role that I've been put into. And so those are moments in time that are really important.
And so there'll still be a place for that deep immersive learning that we sometimes need to do. But you often do need to say, because of the time that I've been put into this, issue, if you're gonna take your,
let's say you get your half hour, if you're gonna try to make that move half hour a week, it's gonna take you way too long to be able to feel like you can make the leap, right? So there are times,
there are moments in time, and I think people need to feel like they have permission to stop and say, I'm gonna make this move and I'm gonna go ahead and do that deep dive. And they're not gonna get at all, you know,
all of it. but there are reasons why people study and go into different domains. And it takes mental energy and time, but it's incredibly exciting and invigorating to do.
- Amen. Anne Hermannetti, it sounds like we survived the rain and wind, which is fantastic. I can't thank you enough for taking time out of your very busy day to share your thoughts on learning the flow.
of work here on The Other In Podcast. How can people get ahold of you if they wanna learn more? - Absolutely, so Herman Solutions, two R's and two N's, H -E -R -R -M -A -N -N. You can find our website,
you can find me on LinkedIn, it's Ann Herman, A -D again, the R's and the N's, they would love to interact with you there, so please connect with me. And delighted to have deeper conversations around this,
this is something I'm heavily involved in and in our organization. organization and look forward to connecting with folks And and seeing what you're doing. Thanks so much. Have a wonderful day.
Thank you. Cheers. Bye Thank you again for listening to the either in podcast here from open LMS I just wanted to ask one more time if you enjoyed this show if you learned something if you were inspired if you were Challenged if you feel like,
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Thanks.