The eLearn Podcast

David James Wants To Tell You A Couple Truths About Learning & Development

November 15, 2022 Stephen Ladek, Principal eLearning Advocacy, Open LMS Season 2
The eLearn Podcast
David James Wants To Tell You A Couple Truths About Learning & Development
Show Notes Transcript

Hello everyone! My name is Ladek and my guest for today is David James, the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning. 

In this very analytical conversation David and I talk about:

01:10 How David started as a trainer around finance and banking, but then evolved into running learning, talent and development for Europe, Middle East and Africa at Disney; and how, along the way, he tracked changes happening in training delivery around data and technology that led him to his current role

06:00 How organizational learning culture is linked—and the tragedy behind the spending on “education” that typically happens at a company and isn’t relevant or just misses the mark entirely. And why “bribes” like gamification often fail

10:00 Why today is the greatest opportunity in history for delivering the right learning to the right person at the right time. Hint: it’s not about your platform, but your ability to uncover what your learners actually need

11:30 What data and evidence-based practices look like when they are used effectively, and why using analytics from learning platforms is basically a “post mortem” and why “learning needs analysis” is defunct in today’s world

14:30 How to move past the typical training request of executives and managers, to be able to identify what isn’t working, what’s the cost of not solving the problem and building training around it

18:00 Why Training-as-a-Bandaid is doomed, what to do about people —yes, CFOs included— who just want a feel good benefit, and how continuing to deliver this is corrosive to your company; and why building a “meaning” muscle dramatically grows the value of the L&D role

19:30 What collaborative learning makes possible—a process that allows L&D professionals to facilitate learning about anything in any company in any context

25:00 Why training is so often synonymous with waste the way it is delivered today; and how to get some of that time, money and effort back

28:30 Why “Analysis” is one of the hardest things to sell in training, especially to executive leadership; and why you might consider selling other things around training and simply include it in the process

33:32 How to get everyone comfortable working with numbers, and the analysis required to understand the problems that need to be solved

39:30 How to deal with pushback around change and the inevitable question from managers and staff of, “what do I do with the things I’m currently doing now?” in order to shift to data driven learning



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This is the eLearn Podcast. If you're passionate about the future of learning, you're in the right place. The expert guests on this show provide insights into the latest strategies, practices and technologies for creating killer online learning outcomes. My name is Ladek and I'm your host from Open LMS. The eLearn Podcast is sponsored by eLearn magazine. Your go to resource for all things online learning click by click How to articles the latest in EdTech Spotlight Unsuccessful Outcomes and Trends in the Marketplace. Subscribe today and never miss a post at eLearn magazine dot com and Open LMS, a company leveraging open source software to deliver a highly effective, customized and engaging learning experience for schools, universities, companies and governments around the world since 2005. Learn more at Open LMS. Dot net. Hello everyone. My name is Ladek. This is the eLearn Podcast and I'm coming to you from Open LMS. And my guest for today is David James, who is the Chief Learning Officer at 360 learning. In this very analytical conversation. David and I talk about how he started as a trainer around finance and banking, but then evolved into running learning talent and organizational development for Europe, Middle East and Africa at Disney. And how, along the way, he tracked changes happening in training delivery around data and technology that have led him to his current role. We also talk about how learning in an organization is linked to its culture and the tragedy behind all of the spend on education that typically happens at a company that just isn't relevant or missing the mark entirely. We also talk about why the bribes that things like gamification don't really help. We also talk about why today presents the greatest opportunity in history for delivering the right learning to the right person at the right time. And it's not about your platform, but your ability to uncover what your learners actually need. David and I also talk about what data and evidence based practices actually look like when they're used effectively, and why using analytics from learning platforms is basically something like a post mortem and why learning needs analysis is totally defunct in today's world. We also talk about how to move past the typical training request of executives and managers to be able to identify what isn't working in your company. What's the cost of not solving the problem and then building the training around that to actually come up with the solution? We also talk about what to do about people who are just looking for training as a band aid or a feelgood benefit and how continued to deliver this is both corrosive to your company and many times this is your CFO who's asking for this and how building this muscle dramatically grows the value of the L.A. rule. David also explains why collaborative learning is a process that allows L.A. professionals to facilitate learning about anything in any company in any context. He also explains why the way training is delivered today in most companies still results in incredible amounts of wasted time, money and effort and gives a shout out to two great books How People Learn and the Great Training Robbery. We also talk about why analysis is one of the hardest things to sell in training, especially to executive leadership and why you might consider selling other things around training and simply including that in the process. We also talk about how we can get everyone comfortable with working with the numbers and the analysis required to understand the problems that need to be solved. And then finally, we talk about how to deal with the pushback that you ultimately will receive around change and the inevitable question for managers and staff of What do I do with the things that I'm used to doing or I'm currently doing in order to shift to data driven learning? And remember, we record this podcast live so that we can interact with you, our listeners, in real time. So if you'd like to join the fun every week on LinkedIn or at Facebook or YouTube. Just come over to eLearn magazine dot com and subscribe. Now I give you David James. How are you, David? I'm very good. I'm very good. Thank you very much. We're delighted to be on the show. Yeah, no, it's it's fantastic to have you. David, you are the chief earning officer at 360 learning. We've been lucky enough to have one of your other colleagues, Jonas, in the summit. Actually, last year we talked about collaborative learning, which is really exciting. And so I'm really excited to kind of continue that conversation and learn where 360 learning is today and also talk about what you're passionate about, which is data, which is the L.A. profession itself and where we're going with things. And I see that you have a guitar in the background. I do. I do, yes. I feel like we all play the guitar at the end. I need to pull one. I need to put one in the back here because I too am a guitar player as I do with everyone though. David, why don't I want to just sort of step aside real quick, give you the, you know, the 30, 60 seconds of who is who is David James and sort of give us your background and what you're doing at 360. Yeah, fabulous. Yes. So I've been in learning and development for for for the best part of 25 years, starting in the late 1990s as a trainer, I was fortunate to have an opportunity to grow my skills as I grew a function as in a stand alone role. I have an enormous amount of fun when the when the reins are off and and you can build something that wasn't there before. But but I felt then as if I really needed to, to test myself. So I joined a larger learning and development team. So so my whole career to that point was in finance and banking in London. But, but I fancied change when, when somebody approached me and asked me whether I'd like to, to join Disney on a short term contract, I took the risk and I thought, okay, let's, let's give it a go. And eight years later, I was running learning talent and organizational development for Disney across Europe, Middle East and Africa. So it's funny how a three month assignment can turn into an eight year career, and I decide to get out before I became a lifer. And I was just going to say, you know, I have to interrupt you there because I have met some of the Disney lifers in Florida and California. It is a. I'm not going to use the C word, but it is it can get very serious about people who are lifers at Disney is it's amazing that that that universe that. So anyway yeah. Yeah I yeah I know people who have got their I mean, you get a you get. That news. You got to get your temper. Or you got a pin for being there five years. I think you got slightly larger keep in for ten years. But I know people who have got their 25 year trophy. So where is a place where where? You know, people people go there and stays. It's quite, quite a lure. And I'd say that that during that time was, you know, I joined the 26 left in 2014. And to say that the the the entire business model was turned upside down is an understatement. When I joined in 2006, Home Entertainment, which was Boxsets and DVDs, was the most profitable division in the company. It wouldn't surprise me if I told you that Boxsets and DVDs became the least profitable division when I left in 2014. And everything between that was was was also shaken up, driven by it, by changing consumer demands. So their need for learning and development during that time was it was extraordinary as the the business model and functions stretched and changed, integrated and decentralized. We were we were a team in demand. But but I left there, as I said, in 2014. And unless they're frustrated, if I'm honest, because I spent the best part of a decade trying to push technology onto people without actually working. And I thought we could we can't do learning and development for thousands of people without smart or or useful technology. And a large proportion of my time, if not a disproportionate amount of time, was spent trying to drive traffic towards platforms and content that people just would not go to. And I thought that that was a there was an opportunity outside because tell me if I'm wrong. We go to Google and YouTube where we need help. I mean, there's no there's no reticence to use technology, but people are smart. People are intolerant of things that they think are going to waste their time. So to to to try to bridge that gap between people and technology. And that's what I would, first of all, did at loop and and what I do now at 360. Fantastic. What? So I want you to take me down there. So when you say you put technology on the table, is it devices, is it, you know, standalone courses? Is it, you know, trying to find learning on demand? Like what's been the evolution there? And like where do you stand today in terms of. Technology because it almost sounds like at the end they're like, you kind of said, hey, look. Platform, not necessary. We've got Google, we've got Facebook. You know, we've got YouTube. You know, maybe maybe it's let's let's support the learner rather than build a platform for them. What do you like? But maybe I've got that wrong. Yeah. So, so. So my thoughts here is that the. First of all, Google and YouTube are great. And I couldn't do nearly all of the the home renovations that I've done without them. But they know nothing about my company and they know nothing about any company that I've ever worked with. I'm a firm believer that at least 90% of the development required in organizations is linked to culture. Everything that emanates from how do we do things around here? And I think that that's absolutely core. But, you know, it's really difficult to sell. So the market don't sell it. And I also think that the that that cracking learning technology is really easy. That's hard that when you're adding bribes to existing content, you've already lost. People are smarter than that. But if give me an. Example of that, what's bribes to existing content? Well, having the gamification leaderboards. It is new and novel delivery mechanisms that try to lure people in through through it being novel rather than it being useful. Because we believe that if we have 10 million pieces of content within awareness, are we learning in development? If we had 10 million pieces of content, we have 100,000 learners, then there must be something for everybody, right? We bet the House on that. We spend our budgets on it. But the only problem is, is that the the it doesn't speak to two roles departments culture. It doesn't speak to customers, clients, stakeholders, norms, and it doesn't speak to roles. It just speaks to education. And so we spend budgets on on the on these big bets that said that the employees themselves are largely apathetic, too. But but what it comes down to, it is so so I am a huge believer of technology. And I believe that we we are capable of a great deal more because of it. But instead of the bribes, one I believe it comes down to my track record of this over the last decade has shown is that if you help people with what they need in the context of what they're actually doing when they need it, bingo, they engage. And then the conversation does isn't then about how do you get people to engage in learning technology? It's now that we've got them, how do we help them to do the things the organization needs them to do? And then you could do that at scale. But if you don't seek to understand what it is that people are trying to do and what they're not able to do without your help, then you can't help them. And everything else is a big bet. And I made a bet because you're, you're, you're trying to rely on pretty platforms full of engaging content. But that engagement isn't what's actually required. It's the useful stuff they need when they need it. And when you break it down, first of all, what I'd say is that's really hard to sell, but learning and development, people who get it are doing this and they're doing this cheaper, faster and more effectively than the people who perhaps are behind the curve a little. Hey there. Thanks again for joining me for this episode of the eLearn Podcast. I'm jumping in here quickly to request that, if you like what you're hearing, if it's valuable, it's fun, if it's informative, you know, if you're really enjoying what's going on, please do me the favor of subscribing to the podcast on your favorite player or whatever you're using now. Just subscribe and I encourage you to join my future conversations live every week on YouTube, Facebook or my LinkedIn feed. Thanks in advance. And now back to the show. Hmm. I love that there's so much to unpack there because the first thing that you think of as an L.A. professional when you put that statement on the on the table, is that what role do I have? But, you know, in my mind, as my mind, my mind always looks at that like, wow, the the opportunity for somebody who is an L.A. professional or who's a learning professional, this is an even greater opportunity than than before. Because before it was like, how do I find that giant volume of stuff that I put on the table that I put in that platform? Now, this is like, how do I get specialized? How do I, you know, meet those learners with what they want when they want it? You know, would you agree that this is an actually even almost a media opportunity then than what they had before? I think this is a greater opportunity, yeah. Because I think that for too long we've been stuck in administration and delivery mode. And whilst we've been we've been hamstrung by, by so much administration. I mean, I think the most dystopian job title in our profession is L.A. L.A. Administrator. I mean, what a job. You work for this dumb computer. I mean, that's what it is. It's film. It needs people working for it. But but, you know, I'm hoping we see in the end of those days, because smart technology should be eradicating the administration and elevating the status of learning and development. And that's what I am actually seeing. But I think the absolute. Critical part of this. It's not about the creation of content. It's about understanding what the needs are. And data and evidence based practice has always already revolutionized other job roles and other job functions. And I think it's landing in learning and development and revolutionizing our impact. So now I know this is an area that you wanted to speak about today. We had talked about this in the green room. Tell me about what data and evidence based practices look like to you from the L.A. perspective, because I think many people listening right now, you know, many of our colleagues are going to say, look, I've got the data from my alums. I've got the data from you know, I've got the clicks, I've got the time, you know, time view of the video. I've got the completion rates, those kinds of things. What does it mean to you and how do we evolve it and use it to our advantage? Okay. So what you're describing there is the post mortem is okay, the patient's dead, right? So. Right. So what did it die of? Right. But but if you if you actually if you engage in the right conversations at the outset, the patient need not die. So. So in data and evidence based practice, first of all, it's recognizing and understanding critical points of failure in your your organization's operation. So. So and the evidence is simply seeking to understand from the perspective of the people we're expecting to influence what they're trying to do and what they're not able to do efficiently. Now, this is this replaces the learning needs analysis. The learning needs analysis is dead. There's no point in doing it anymore. It was a resource allocation exercise because learning and development used to take so much time and cost so much money, it doesn't anymore. And if if it is the way you're doing it, you're doing it wrong. So so the data and evidence based practice is taking the same requests from the same stakeholders, the ones that say, hey, could I have some training? And instead of saying, Yeah, what would you like in the training? Or Who would you like on the training or when would you like the training? It's it's saying, what is it you're hoping to achieve with the training? What's not working now that needs to work better? What's the cost of doing nothing? Right. So you are having a big conversation only about the things that your stakeholder should be invested in. So you. So if if this is a true need, then you. Then your data is the very next question. It's the killer question. Brilliant. Show me. Mm hmm. If this is such a big deal. Show me. Show me you're missing those slides. Show me that you're. That we're losing good people. Show me that we're hemorrhaging customers. Show. Show me how. This is actually a critical point of failure. So you get the data. That data might be over a long window, a short window, but you want to drill down into it to find out what that's actually telling you. And then let me so let me just interrupt you real quickly there. Who is responsible for showing you that is you're saying the learner is coming up and saying, you know, I'm missing. I'm missing as always, every week and I'm unable to answer tickets and this and that or whose is this or is this now the meat of the plan? The expertize is saying, I'm not. Questioning. Good question. Because what I'm not saying here is this is this is an upside down granular learning needs analysis. Wherever we are, it's a free for all leads. Analysis is really not that this is your stakeholders, your right, your business heads, your rat, your leadership, the people who are asking for your help like we are asking for your help. Now, the ones who say, look, I could do some training for my first line managers, though. These are the people. So you would have been engaging in a learning conversation with them before, but this time you're only interested in what those people are accountable for and the results that they're not getting right now. So you've got to move past the training request. And the way you do that is you say, yes, so. So you say, Stevie, can I can I have some get some training from my first line managers? The answer is yes, absolutely. But before we get into the nuts and bolts of that, what is it that you're hoping to achieve with this? What they're all going to be so many curveballs. This is because people are used to getting the training they ask for. The only problem is that training rarely led to significant difference in the way people worked and the results they got. And the reason is, is that you can't possibly affect the work if you don't know what they do. Otherwise, we rely on too much. A lot of hope and osmosis. I'm afraid. I'm not. I'm not I believe I'm not superstitious. So so I believe that you can't affect the work unless you understand the work. So what we want to do is we want to find out what is it that these people are expected to do that they're not able to do? What what is the cost of doing nothing here? So we want to get right down into the very reason, the genesis of the thought that these people needed help. 80% of the time, leaders and managers have got where they are for a good reason. They're savvy, they're smart. You can talk to them on their level and you can get past the. A training request. So the actual reason that I engage in the conversation 20%. Forget it. They just want the training the way the way I described it, Steve, in his letter. I've got an eight year old daughter. If she falls over, she bruises her leg, she'll ask for a plaster. I'll take a look at that. And I say it's not bleeding. And I know she just wants a plaster to make her feel better. And I give her the plaster. 20% of stakeholders will say, I want training from my middle managers. Now you've got what's the outcome you're looking for? I go, No, no, no, no. I want training for men and middle managers. And they say, You've got your first aid kit, you get a plaster out, but you go for the cheapest, easiest one you can apply because you know, it doesn't matter because that because it's a non-problem and you just want to feel better. But if you've got a stakeholder and there is a critical point of failure in their operation that they need your help with, then they'll engage in that conversation. So you've got your data and then you what you want to do is you want to take that data for the people who are responsible for it and accountable for it. These would have been your attendees. These would have been the people that you said at the end of your training course. Nothing will change if you don't apply what you've learned today. What would be the one thing you've learned from this five day course that you're going to look to apply? Like, seriously? We used to say that stuff. But but so what you're doing is you're showing them the data that they're accountable for and you're saying, so things aren't working out the way that the other are. They're expected to. But luckily, I'm here to help. I need to know what you're trying to do when you're when you're doing this work and what you're not able to do efficiently or effectively right now. Let's talk about I got. This is awesome. I love this conversation. So but so two things that I want to talk to you real quick. One is that 20% that need the plaster, right. Haven't you just identified a a cancer? Haven't you just identified, you know, sort of a. A part of your organization that is just cogs in it. And do you want that? Maybe your organization needs cogs? I don't know. But like have in your experience over the last ten years, are these people that we finally, you know, that we maybe have just identified that maybe need to matriculate out and, you know, we need to find a way to, you know, bring in some fresh blood there or do I have that wrong? Like every business kind of needs that maybe there are glue or something that that hold the organization together. That's a really good question. And some of those people are perhaps should be moved on because they're just grease in the wheels instead of having the tricky conversations or actually managing that permanent off on to Allende. But I can also tell you, from my experience of actually being in L.A., sometimes that's your CFO. The CFO is already sold training. So by the time they get to you and say, I want training, they've already sold it to the people that that they want to attend it. So when you say what are those outcomes, they're already looking at thinking, oh, no, no, no. I think well, I think what you're trying to do is consult. I just want you to deliver. And I've had that. I've had those conversations and some people just won't be moved. And there are too many people in learning and development because we can't demonstrate our value. We don't have a lot of currency in the organization or influence to say, hey, Bob over there, he's, you know, he's a needs be cut adrift because he's not adding the value. We don't have that currency. We develop that currency if we're affecting the work we do, doing that in a predictably predictable and reliable way. I'm just going to say we've got it. You've got to take is there is and is is that a part of the data conversation that you're saying? So this takes me to the second question where if we're showing up to that conversation, saying, look, show me what you want to effect, like what's going wrong and what, you know, how do we want to effect? It almost sounds to me like the L.A. professional. You're the real job, and maybe it's always been. This is just facilitating the move, facilitating the behavior change. Right. And I'm saying that in the most generous way possible, because you and I, I mean, I, I'm not you know, I don't know anything about fixing engines or I don't know anything about, you know, the customer service protocols for my. But but if you tell me there's a problem, I can facilitate the problem that you see and you probably already know the solution, but we just got to get you there. Do I have that right or am I missing the boat on that one? Yeah, that's a part of the puzzle that really is. And that leads us to the collaborative element of of collaborative learning that that if we know what the problem is, then we can all work together in order to solve it. So but the beauty of this approach is, is that you're right next to your stakeholder. You've had a conversation with data between you and your stakeholder. You realize what the problem is. You know, the data tells you so what you're doing is then you go to the people who are accountable for the work with your stakeholder, and then you uncover that. And then what's going to come out is, you know, as you said, it's not it's not going to be learning. There's going to be stuff around processes, there's going to be systems, there's going to be a technical element. It could be relationships, there could be communication, all of these things. But unless you have the conversation about what it could be, you can't get there. So so there'll be certain pilots and it doesn't take a bold person to go in process. That's not me. Oh, okay. But again, I mean, what are you going to do? You're going to be the other person going, Oh, yeah, I'll take that. I'll take that. I mean, how much how little credibility or confidence you have in yourself to think that you are the order taker. We all do that. But but what I'm saying is that that that this data and evidence based practice truly unpacks what's actually going on, and then who's responsible for that is a different matter. But if you're right next to your stakeholder, you who you've built more trust with because you're interested in talking about solving the real problems, then you are further down the line. Then you've got that collaborative element. So if you've got so, so if you think that you're a facilitator who's going to help to connect with the right, that the people responsible for the work with the right expertize in order to increase their capability, then, then the rest of this is just a collaborative exercise as well. But again, don't don't take on more than you should. Your stakeholder doesn't expect you to be taking on all of this stuff. They expect you to be representing learning and development and to be working on the the knowledge gaps and the and the skills gaps to increase the capability. So so I'd say to people, back, back yourself, I don't think you're going to be taking on its job by plugging in the systems. Where does this potentially go wrong and where has it? Where does it need a strong hand to? Guide the process or set it set a direction because I can see, you know, many times decision by committee, decision by, you know, a group can sometimes go awry and may not ultimately fit, especially in this case, the needs of the business or the direction the business maybe, you know, the board has said, look, we're we're moving out of this service business and we're moving in this direction. Like, talk to me about that, where we're going to go wrong. What are the other real challenges of? Getting people to recognize what's wrong and then collaboratively coming up with a solution. But I think that said that there's no risk when you're talking with people about the job that they're accountable for and they're expected to do. So I'd say that in that regard, there's no risk. But what I think you've highlighted there is that if there is a fundamental, fundamental shift in the way the work is going to be done in order to deliver the same results or different results, then this is a different conversation with a stakeholder who says, Look, I'd like some training. What was that some training on, right? So we need to train people that we have great examples. If you have marked in the last 15 years, we'd got to train our marketers to be digital marketers. You have to look ago was a fundamentally different job. You wouldn't train that. You'd create many accelerated apprenticeships, and you would look to seed an amplifier, a pocket of expertize and know how and make that more broadly applicable. Perhaps you would do some kind of assessment first to understand where people actually are and then plug them into the resources that are going to help them to guide us, support them to do more of the right stuff. So you make a good point when things are going to change, then then it's a different conversation. But if you're looking to improve the way things are, which is I'd say it's about 70% of learning and development training requests, then data and evidence will help you to zero in on what the actual problems are or the critical points of failure are in the way that people are working and highlight to the people who are responsible for the work because you're not asking them what they need to be trained on. You're asking them what, like in the context of what they're doing, what they need in order to get that figure upwards. And you've got the stakeholder in the room. So if you've got a roomful of people going, well, this is this is accounts for and it's therefore and it's therefore you've got stakeholder gain. Is any of this your responsibility? So there is there is a risk of finger pointing. But generally this comes down to, you know, your data is not lying. If you are responsible for those numbers and we've got the right people in the room, there is going to be a conversation around we don't have this information or this capability and that's where you can step in. But as for the conversation, I'd say there's next to no risk. What are you going to think? What are we up against here? We are up against making sure, just taking huge assumptions. So aggregating learning needs of second hand information so people who aren't doing the job, managers and leaders aggregating those up to to a higher level of abstraction and then delivering down standardized programs that don't speak to the context in which they work. I'd say the way we've been doing that in developed for 25 years is the riskiest. You can do it if you want to pivot the conversation to what it is that people are actually doing, you're increasing your chances of of hitting the mark of of zero in in on making the actual difference required. So data and evidence based practice and these conversations decrease the risk because what we're doing right now invested in platforms and programs. There's a report that was published in 2016 called The Great Training Robbery, which when it talks then of I think it was $162,162 million of spend on training, which Nick Jones then equated in his book, How People Learn, I think two $300 billion of training a year, right? So there's a huge amount of money in this report, the great training robbery. It states that only 10% of training spend can be equated to demonstrable impact. While you do those math and you realize that there is $260 billion of waste, and if and a lot of this is going to be because people make big bets on solutions and they don't know the problems that that data and evidence based practice will start to rectify a lot of that that the challenges that we've had in this profession. So, so tough question. Yeah. I'm going to move. And so I'm going to start the question by moving outside the L.A. universe for a second, because I've been a consultant. That was that was my life for a long, long time. And I can't tell you the number of times that I went to one of my clients and I said, look, what we don't need is a meeting with 20 people here. Yeah, right. You work, you're going to fly a whole bunch of people in and we're going to spend two days in a room and we're going to talk. And just the burn rate of the people hours is going to be half a million dollars, right? Just the burn rate on the salaries. Right. And then you're telling me I've got budget issues and this going to be like. How much is it that we don't want to hear or we don't want to take, make, take? The uncomfortable choices of this kind of goes back to that 20% of people. Right? The uncomfortable choices of actually you actually have to change the behavior. Right. Or, hey, guess what? You know, that that, you know, you're kind of normal work pattern that you've been going through every day that you're used to. And you got that, you know, you're kind of comfortable life and whatnot. We're going to have to change that and break that. And so people resist that. So, hey, how much of this is making tough decisions and doing that in a way that is respectful? But, look, we're you know, we're we're trying to go that way and where we want we need to go that way. Do you understand what I'm asking here? Yeah. You know, this is this is the like you're talking about $260 billion of wasted training. That just sounds like a lot of leaders that weren't willing to do the hard work or take the tough decision. And I don't want to be so grand as to, you know, I'm on high here and making that. But I've seen it. I've seen it. So what what's your thoughts on that? I completely agree. I remember I spent 15 years in house speaking to vendors. I take vendors to stakeholders and say so I used to vendors on the way up to the meeting and say, look, we want to get a lot of time here. What we've got to think about is a gold, silver and bronze solution. So they've got the gold. The gold solution includes all the analysis. But I know that that that there is a reluctance towards analysis. And so you might want to offer the silver and the bronze, and then you hope they go for the middle, which is a modicum of of of analysis. But Guy Wallace, I consider a friend and and a mentor. He's he's been doing this stuff since 1979. And he says analysis, what is one of the hardest things that you get through the door. So sometimes you need to do it without without calling it so he'd laugh because I'd call sessions of of analysis, discovery, thinking that it was it was softer somehow when you might just open the door. But I'd say that in the way that I've been describing it here, it's. First of all, I think we're in the zeitgeist. I think that so much more business is done with data. And I think that if we can and I'm speaking here predominantly to in-house L.A., because I'm afraid that us vendors on the outside will always get. Or parts of briefs. That's never gonna change. But if you're in house and you're having that conversation and your stakeholders says. I'd like some training for my middle managers. Hmm. It's our opportunity. If we'd say, if we want to have a training conversation now, we will miss the boat. But if we want to have that, just instead of if we say yes, I'd love to help. Could you tell me what you'd look like to achieve? I think that we are not too far. And we can help everyone. They can help every vendor that comes in through the door. But if we if we simply take the request and we look for the best fit vendor with the best fit solution, we will continue to miss the mark and make just a small amount of impact. And we will deliver what was asked. We make the impact, but we can't because we didn't explore what the impact was. We ended up trying to develop skills without actually discussing what those skills were were meant to impact. Where, in your opinion, since you've been looking at this forever and I love the examples that you have, the experience that you bring to the table. Wow. Where are we going to see or how can we affect that that tectonic shift? Right. That those plates, you know, like because I'm going to characterize it in this way. We live we live in an era of data. We live in an era of analysis. We live in an era where if you were to walk into a room, be like, yeah, we don't. We do. We do business by the gut. You know, we don't really look good to you. We get laughed out of the room. Right. And yet you just said 3 minutes ago, 2 minutes ago, you're like, look, people, you know, you would walk vendors in and be like, look, you can't we're not going to put analysis on the table. We're not. In other words, you're saying we're not really going to look at the data. We're not really going to give the actual answer. Right. That people want to hear. That's akin to somebody saying I'm off in my mind often goes back to this, where if you were to walk into a party, a dinner party tomorrow and just, you know, you would just be sitting here and, you know, you were talking with the person next to you and you guys were talking about finance or something and say, hey, you know what, math? That's not my you know, I've never, never been really good with numbers. You guys would have a joke, right? You guys would have a little laugh about it. And everybody's like, Yeah, of course. Yeah. But if somebody were to tell you about, you know, hey, you know, I didn't read that book because I can't read, right? You would be like, Oh, you can't rewrite. I feel like this is the kind of conversation that we're having right now in the data world where we we're almost giving lip service to data to into analysis because it's the words that we're supposed to say. It's the image that we're supposed to project. We're collecting lots of data, but how do we make that cultural shift to saying, I can be comfortable with this, I can I can do this? You know, you know, this is not something that's that's this is something that's very knowable. I'm not sure if I couch that question correctly, but how do we make that shift so that even Sally on the front line feels comfortable saying, you know what, I know the numbers, I know how they work? That's a really good question. And I'd say that we do that by not starting with the numbers that if we if so, to make that shift, we've got to remember what the numbers are for. Right. We've got to make sure we're working on the right stuff because by working on the wrong stuff, we can spend an enormous amount of money. We've been talking an enormous amount of money on stuff that just can't meet the mark. So remember, we're not forging any new interactions with our stakeholders. We are we are just taking it down a different path with our stakeholders. And the role of data in this is just to validate whether this is actually a thing and to what extent it's a thing and who is actually responsible. So, so all we're doing so so this comes along that the whole middle manager thing we need, I need to try to figure out what is it that they are not doing right now? Well, I don't believe it. Well, first of all, so you could say that the ones that been hit longest seem to be blocking the path for good, talented people. Okay. What's the impacts of that? We're losing talented people, but can I see the data? But so what we're doing is we say, I just need to see what is actually going on. Now, I don't think it takes too much of a leap to know where to get that data right. So so you would then say, right, could you just get me a, you know, a list of of those middle managers I'll run it past. HRA is the IT systems team who tell you show me who's leaving, what percentage of their teams though those are a little bit of the status. You know, some of the important stuff. What was their performance rating? What was their tenure within your organization? Did we have a plan for them? Is this actually a problem with the middle managers? So so you can see that all you need to do and there's this brilliant altcoin Harvard called How to Think Like a Data Scientist. And really, this is just the application of that. There is an assumption, there's a broad assumption. You need to ask yourself the question, what would I say for this to be true? Hmm? What would I what would I be seeing if this weren't true? So these middle managers, I'm having a look and I've seen there's absolutely no churn. I've just got disgruntled people who had the ear of my stakeholder thinking like, this is a different problem, but, but, but what would you actually like to do? You know, so, so this is where it actually starts. This all stop learning and development, spending a great deal of money and wasting their time on. Could you just imagine that I'd taken that training request and now I'm down the path of a vendor? The vendor then brings their analysis team in and goes, This could be anything. So. So I've pitching you a five day course, a three day course or a two day course. Okay, so let's go for the three days. Let's go for the silver. What can we fit in there? Right. So it's a crowbar in topics into a program that can't possibly hit the mark because we don't even know whether this is a problem or not. And it could be I mean, this is the tough one with stakeholder. That's the problem. You know, they have not designed an org where there's anywhere for people to go. And so what they want to do is they want to increase the capability of the middle management to try to craft some kind of satisfaction from nowhere. It's like knitting without wool. And I like that. But you don't. Unless you go down that path. And so this is why I say that the data and evidence is is absolutely critical. But it doesn't start into your analogy. You know, you don't open a book when you can't read and then sort of fumble your way through and then go, well, I don't like books. What you do is you have the conversations to understand what the assumptions are. You determine how you would prove or disprove that would be the case. And then you just lean on. I mean, as I said, those are all of the data I've just stated would be one visit to the H.R. systems to just one visit with all of those questions. And that's it. But you so you start with an assumption and then what you believe would prove or disprove that assumption I think is accessible. So to take me there, I think many people who are going to be listening this, you know, part of what's in their head is that this sounds like a lot of work. This sounds like a lot of time, you know, a lot of investment, which at the end of the day, if you're getting a better result, okay, let's do it. But what am I looking at when I'm looking at a collaborative solution? I guess it's kind of a stupid question. Do I care? Hey, if it gets me where I want to go, then that's what I should do. But what's the difference in what you know? What's the different time investment for an L.A. professional doing it the collaborative way? Okay, so, so doing it this way. If you've got so, so you speak in stakeholder and getting the data from from our systems and then bring in the, the people responsible for the work together for an exploration session that could take you up to two weeks. And that's mainly to get into people's diaries. The conversation of finding the evidence, I think, is likely to have addressed 40, maybe 50% of the actual issue because you've urged the issue in front of all the key people and then you've had a conversation. Everything else is zero in on it. It could be, as I said, the stakeholder could be taking a part of that that role, a way to deal with procedures, systems and the like. So you've opened this up, but I would say that the majority of this could be you could have a working solution in the hands of the people who need it, either with regular workshops or conversations, 90 minute workshops on a particular topic, and digital resources that you would create in-house in just a few minutes just to plug those gaps. And that's a few minutes with subject matter experts in your organization, I'd say in 3 to 4 weeks you could have something in the hands of the people, everybody accountable for the work and making a meaningful difference. I would go so far as to say you wouldn't have even chosen a vendor in that time if you were doing it the traditional way. Mm. Wow. What am I not asking you about this? What are the what are the what are the things that you're most excited about? What are the challenges that you see? You know, as it sounds like this is it's a no brainer, why would you do it any other way? Like, what are what are the pieces that you're, you know, the roadblocks that you're coming up against when you either bring the collaborative solution to a client or, you know, the 360 platform to a client. Like what are the what are the what's the pushback? So the pushback is, what do I do with the stuff that I'm doing now? So my response is that the what the what I've just described doesn't replace a great deal apart from bad betting and fumbling along and trying to make those, those same mistakes. Because if you're not talking about the work, you're not fixing the work. And if what you're doing is you're applying all of your money and energy into developing more learning, then you're creating more noise. So, so what? So, so the way that I see this is that that you don't ever want to be throwing away anything that works. But how do you know it works? I always ask the question, how do you know it works? People attend, right? Don't don't break anything that people consider significant to them. If your course is your curriculum, run themselves because you've got good vendors, then you keep them as is. But at the same time, if you've got a presentation skills course that's very popular, but people are rubbish at presenting in your organization. You probably won't ever look at your presentation problem and look it in a data and evidence based manner and then either pull it or leave it that late down the line. And as far as online content is concerned, a lot of the time there is an indicator there for you. If people aren't using it, it's not because they don't like online learning, it's not because they don't have time to learn and it's not because they don't know how to learn. It's the clearest indicator that you've got a non solution there that's fixing an L.A. engineered problem, which is we don't have online content or some of the biggest content houses and we all know what they're called. We struggle for, for engagement. And I know because I speak to a lot of L.A. leaders who say, how do you get people to engage in. Vendor X, you go, well, if if your people are on and you think the message is out there, your people are giving you a really clear indication that it's not a wholesale solution that's required. Don't get me wrong, there were some great some great content houses out there that you can subscribe to. But if you're struggling to get any meaningful engagement, what is a meaningful 1% could be meaningful. But if you're if it's not proliferating through your entire organization, it's probably not a company wide solution. It's going to be very particular to people who at certain stages within their career or their job role. So so I'd say that the that the indicators you have should be listened to. But don't go pulling everything out. What you do I mean, anybody who's made a pivot from providing learning to solving business problems does it one conversation at a time. They don't develop the learning culture. They don't get a CEO to get permission. They don't get the senior leadership to get the mandate down. They don't get more line managers engaged. And they don't get learners to change their expectations or their behaviors or to become more self-directed. They simply work on business problems with that, with requisite data and evidence, and then they solve it laser focused. So you've got to such a point where your key stakeholders are saying, Why did we do it? Why don't we do it all like this? And you say humbly, That's a great idea. I wish I thought that, but you don't do it before. There's no there's just no need. You've got to create the groundswell from from each key stakeholder at time. And you gain the currency and the credibility by actually solving the problems and being able to show that you have. I'm not on my podcast, the learning to develop a podcast. I do speak with so many people who have done this and not a single one tried to align the planets before they went ahead. They said they tried it once. It worked. They tried it again, but this time with a little bit more confidence. By the third, fourth and fifth time, they're doing it better than they had before. And some of them completely automated the the needs extraction process and got total transparency across the organization. So every time a request comes in for training, everyone sees and then it's placed with the with that with the weighting required. What's going to make the greatest value to the organization? So that backlog is completely transparent. Everyone knows what they're working on and they chew through 200 initiatives a year. Mm. Wow, that's fantastic. I am never I'm always surprised how quickly 45 minutes goes by here. My final question for you, sir, even though it sounds like there's much more we can chew on, here is what? What are you most excited about in this particular proposition? Like what? In the in the L.A. universe? What's, you know, as you look forward six months, 12 months from now, in the near future. What are you psyched about? What is it that, you know, you want everyone to know about is it could be a shiny new object. It could be an organization. It could be a process. Is there anything that you want to put on the table that is that everyone should check out that you're you're particularly enamored with? A Well, it's a it's a it's quite the question. So now down to one. I so it's I'm always excited when I'm speaking to people who are actually at the sharp end of learning and development, those who are actually changing it from within organizations. So, so if I can plug my podcast that those are the people I talk to them, they're making the difference. Nothing lights me up more than somebody who says, Look, we decided we were going to make this change. And I was talking with with a with a company just last week who who did this pivot and have changed totally change the expectation of what L.A. can achieve in their organization. And they're going to be taking on a bigger part of the learning and development pie as a result. It is amazing what we can do in our function when we show that we are valuable. We do that by making an actual difference. And so whether it's on my podcast or or this podcast or other great ones out there listening to the people who are actually making this difference. And I think that's where we get excited. Fantastic. David James, you are the chief learning officer for 360 Learning. Thank you so much for taking time out today to speak with us. Clearly a topic everybody needs to pay attention to. But I thank you for taking the time today. Thank you. Thanks again for joining me for the eLearn Podcast. Make sure you never miss an episode by subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts. Just just push. Subscribe on your player right now. And remember, you can join the conversation live on YouTube, Facebook and my LinkedIn feed every week. I hope to see you there. Thanks.