Animation, eLearning and the Best Flauta Recipe Ever with Erick Prospero

My guest for today is Erick Prospero, the founder and chief Ninja at Ninja Tropic, which is NOT a self defense agency specializing in hot weather combat—but rather an eLearning animation company born out of passion and practicality.

In this very practical conversation Erick and I talk about:

📣 What is Ninja Tropic? The genesis of Ninja Tropic because of a need to create microlearning at scale (or high volume) for the nonprofit universe… and how Eric and his now-team got it done
📽 Why there are different kinds of video, and why you’ll use video for everything, from a 30second topic intro, to long-form video for deeper explanations… and why finding the format that your audience responds best to is critical
🤔 The need for immediacy vs quality storytelling. And why you might consider keeping your boring content for video, and your exciting, juicy content for text or other formats
🌦 Corporate learners vs academic settings. Eric explains how it’s so often not about what the learners want, but what the institution is set up to be able to produce and the cultural inertia behind it. (Hint: academia generally ain’t interested in competing.) And examples of HigherEd that are solving for this and doing cool stuff
🇬🇧 The process for creating great microlearning. Eric walks us through the process Ninja Tropic uses to work with a diversity of clients to produce effective content. And why the best content is motivational (not necessarily instructional). PS. Eric gives a huge shout out to flautas! 🌮
👨‍👩‍👧‍👧 How to produce content that can be consumed anytime. Eric’s experience shows that people are looking for both timed and structured courses, as well as “consume at your own pace” content; and why what we really need to be focused on is how to remove friction from accessing content
🛎 How much of learning data is actually used, and how much is this just lip service. Eric explains how he helps his clients use lead and lag metrics
🕹 When to use animation vs live video. Eric explains why he’d always choose live video, but that this isn’t practice and why animation is better suited to certain types of content
📴 When VR will take off for the masses, and why this won’t become mainstream until it's completely frictionless and immediately accessible to everyone

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Transcript

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This is the eLearn Podcast. If you're passionate about the future of learning, you're in the right place. The expert guests on this show provide insights into the latest strategies, practices and technologies for creating killer online learning outcomes. My name is Ladek and I'm your host from Open LMS. The eLearn Podcast is sponsored by eLearn magazine. Your go-to resource for all things online learning click by click How to articles the latest in EdTech Spotlight Unsuccessful Outcomes and Trends in the Marketplace. Subscribe today and never miss a post at eLearnMagazine.com. And Open LMS, a company leveraging open source software to deliver a highly effective, customized and engaging learning experience for schools, universities, companies and governments around the world since 2005. Learn more at open l'oms dot net everyone. My name is Ladek and my guest for today is Eric Prospero. He is the founder and chief ninja at Ninja Tropic, which is not a self-defense agency specializing in hot weather combat, but rather an e-learning animation company borne out of passion and practicality. In this exciting conversation, Eric and I talk about what exactly Ninja Tropic is, right? The genesis of the company because of a need to create microlearning at scale or high volume for the nonprofit universe, and how Eric and his now team got it done. We also talk about why there are different kinds of video and why you'll use video for everything from a 32nd video to introduce a topic to long form video for deeper conversations and explanations and why finding the format that your audience responds to is critical. Eric and I also talk about the need for immediacy versus quality storytelling and why you might consider keeping your boring content video and your exciting, juicy content for text or other formats. We also juxtapose the difference between corporate learners and the academic literature academic settings. Eric explains how it's so often not about what the learners want, but what the institution is set up to be able to produce. And the cultural inertia behind it. In little hand here academic. It generally isn't interested in competing in this area. And Eric also gave some examples of higher ed institutions that are actually solving for this and doing really cool stuff. We also talk about the process for creating great microlearning. Eric walks us through the process Ninja Tropic uses to work with a diversity of clients to produce effective content and why the best content is motivational and not necessarily instructional itself. And Eric gives a huge shout out to FLOTUS and figuring out how to make those. Eric and I also talk about how to produce content that can be consumed any time. Eric's experience shows that people are looking for both timed and structured courses, as well as consume at your own pace content. And what we really need to be focused on is how to remove friction from accessing content itself. We also talk about how much of learning data is actually used and how much of this is just lip service. Eric explains how he helps his clients to use lead and log metrics to analyze everything that they're doing and improve it along the way. We also talk about when to use animation versus like video. And ironically, Erik explains why he always use live video if he could, because that's the most engaging stuff, but that it isn't really practical and animation is actually better suited to certain types of content and situations. And we round out our, our conversation about discussing when will VR take off for the masses? And Eric explains why he thinks this won't really become mainstream until it's completely frictionless and immediately accessible to everyone. And remember, we record this podcast live so that we can interact, interact with you, our listeners, in real time. So if you'd like to join the fun every week on LinkedIn, Facebook or YouTube, just come over to eLearn magazine dot com and subscribe. Now I give you Eric Prospero. Shazam! There we are. Fantastic. How are you today, sir? I'm doing pretty good, actually. I have a quick question. Why? Why did you guys choose Phenix? That is a fantastic. And, you know, I'd have to give you a corporate answer, because Open Olympus is owned by a company called the Learning Technologies Group, which is a public UK company. And there's just a process that they go through of, you know, what destinations make the most sense. You know, our audience is mostly in North America. And then, you know what, hotels are available. You know, we have a certain budget that we work within. So there's you know, there's a whole bunch of like criteria that you look at in order to choose that. I mean, they were they were looking at a bunch of different options, like I find it fascinating. They were looking at Cancun, they're looking at Miami, they're looking at San Diego, you know, and it's like, where do people. Do whatever you put on an event, you've got to ask yourself, where are people interested in going to as a destination? What's affordable? Arizona. That's definitely there now. And you'll be approached by yummy rolls like, you know, the last place. But at the same time, it's really interesting because I have, you know, socialize this with quite a few people in our audience. And the reaction is, Hey, Phenix, nice place, you know, and then you look at the hotel and when I'm quite nice, I'm like, Wow, I. I live here. So I'm excited. I actually live in Phenix and that's what's pretty. Cool, right on. The base in Phenix. So I was, I was curious last time. I talked, I thought we wait, why, why do I have Guatemala in my head then. Oh. So we, our corporate offices in Phenix, we have instructional designers, marketing sales staff here, but our production studio, or at least the larger one, is in San Salvador. So we have a U.S. space presence that's, I would say, small to medium size. But our larger team is in El Salvador. El Salvador. That's what it was. Right. Sorry about. Yes. You know, and but now I can actually say we chose because you Eric, wanted to come and hang out. You know, we knew the corporate headquarters. We knew you. We knew you made the choice for a reason. No, but anyway, you are the chief ninja at Ninja Tropics, which, you know, if if you just hear the name, nobody really knows what it is. So tell us. The Ninja Tropics, you know, like 2 minutes story. What what is it that you put into the e-learning universe and, you know, sort of what you offer, and then we'll talk about what that means. So we initially started off as a MICROLEARNING video and animation studio and we've stayed true to our niche. It's something we do very well and one of the things that we're known for is doing it in volume. So I started this business about five or six years ago working for a nonprofit, and I had a very ambitious boss. Her name was email and she was scary. I mean, she's my mentor now. She was very scary at the time. And she had this vision of competing with a lot of these venture backed firms that were producing a lot of video content because that's how they monetize, right? People prefer paying for video. It was something that was effective. And she said, Eric, we need you to produce X amount of videos and do it in this amount of time. So it was a challenge because we had a nonprofit budget. It wasn't necessarily something that I can one. Who's worked in the nonprofit world for 15 years or more. I totally get it. It's and it's it's hard, too, because. It's not only the budget, but it's the and let's not I don't want to side rail your story but or sidetrack your story but it's it's a mindset to the mind. The nonprofit world has a has a particular mindset about how can you spend money, you know, how do you budget it? How do you take risk? It's it's a little it's very different than especially if you consider venture back, sort of a VC backed kind of firm. And then you put you put a nonprofit that the mentality and I mean this not in a derogatory way, but it's just it's a it's a mindset. It's a framework that you come to come to the table with. Oh, yeah. You'll have people who are leading the nonprofit that's been in the association space for years. So they don't even have a sometimes they don't necessarily have that mindset for innovation or what's cool. But fortunately I did EML She was very ambitious. She wanted to run the company or run the nonprofit like a company. And she said, Look, here, take this very big budget and do what we can. And for her and for us, it was a decent sized budget. All right. We have we had about 100 K to work with. Awesome. That's great. That's a great pot of money to start with, man. That's fantastic. The issue and unfortunately, we needed to produce about 110 videos with advanced animation. And if you really think about, like the costs and the time and effort. Even hiring two internal animators. That puts us into $120,000 a year and two animators alone can produce. Maybe you can get 23 videos if they're 1% focus. Nothing bad happens in the content writing. So we had freelancers at the time. We were struggling there and I thought, okay, we got to figure out how we can hire this. So I went to some agencies and I don't I don't mention the name, but I mentioned the scope of work and I told them our budget and they basically laughed and said, Hey, look, it's not going to be possible. It's a lot of work. You guys can't do this. Well, fortunately, I had a background supply chain operations that said, okay, maybe we can source a portion of this out abroad. It's very common where at least the very advanced stuff we can get some type of deal. And I went to companies and I. Can I said, I tracked your conversation one more time to oppose the things they find really interesting, as well as that when we still think of it and I'm as guilty as anybody, but I just noticed this in your narrative that let's outsource it abroad. Yeah. Like there is no such thing as abroad anymore, right? It's just people. I mean, you and I were in. I'm in Mexico. You're in Phenix. You know, Cristina, our colleague in the background here, he's in Colombia. You know, I just talked about a company in the UK. Like there is no abroad anymore. We're all in the same boat all the time. It's. It's just an interesting thing, right? It's just about finding the right talent with the right price point at the end of the day. But, you know, ten years ago or even five years ago, that wasn't even you know, even that's still being socialized in our brain. So I apologize. But I just I love that that's just not a thing. Yeah, there's there's definitely different kinds of abroad to write. There's outsourcing, which is very, very far away. And there's near near shore. Right. And and so being in Mexico City, even Colombia, actually, I was there last week were I was visiting the team in Colombia last week and it was a. I mean, they work in Eastern Time, sometimes central. So but my challenge was to try to find options in the Philippines and the end. It was just frustrating. It still felt disconnected. Very talented people. But the Times. Said, Yeah, it's a 12 hour difference, man. That's super difficult. Yeah. But fortunately, I. I was recently reading a book called The Four Hour Workweek. And if you read that book. That's absolutely 100%. And. Honestly truthful answer is no. I've never read it. I just I've heard I've heard so many people talk about it that I feel like I know the book. I will be honest, honestly, that the title sums it up, right? Yeah. I mean, I know the premise. I mean, I've been in the startup entrepreneur game forever. Like, I totally get it. But yeah, no, I never read it, never bought it. So it's a solid book. I like it. I mean, if you if you're trying to program yourself to be a little more efficient and disconnected at work. Great book. I recommend it. The main takeaway that I got was, Hey, look, you can multiply yourself or you can create more time by hiring people in different areas, right? Whether if it's a freelance or locally, people abroad. And they actually suggested different companies in Latin America. But I was thinking, okay, well, that actually could work. It's the same time zone. There's a little more alignment of culture and it's easier to jump on a call. So I found this company that was this essentially focused on virtual admin services, and I said, Look, find me an animator. I can teach them certain softwares and I can build up a team this way. But then the person we hired ended up having a master's in animation. He spoke three languages. He knew more about American culture that he was going. He wouldn't start talking about an Iron Maiden concert we just went to. And then I was thinking, this gets cooler than I am. Like, I haven't done anything exciting or fun like this in a while. So and he's actually my business partner today. We built up a really cool system for that association at the time. I think this is solving a very annoying problem about scaling video learning content. So that's our two minute story total over nine and a half minutes. So hey there. Thanks again for joining me for this episode of the eLearn Podcast. I'm jumping in here quickly to request that if you like what you're hearing, if it's valuable, it's fun, if it's informative, you know, if you're really enjoying what's going on, please do me the favor of subscribing to the podcast on your favorite player. Whatever you're using now, just hit subscribe and I encourage you to join my future conversations live every week on YouTube, Facebook or my LinkedIn feed, thanks in advance. And now back to the show. So what I find interesting is that you seem to be when you say video content in my brain, that means like, hey, I picked up an iPhone or I've got a camera or that's what I'm calling video. Are you conflating or including animation in there or are you talking truly like video like what we're doing right now? Well, there's different kinds of video, right. And it really depends on the audience and the business purpose behind it. So my background is in content monetization, right? Especially in the association space. We need to produce something that people are willing to pay for. And so that's there's a big difference between content, marketing, content, right? And then structured learning content. So in my mind, video, at least from an educational perspective and in the frame of how do we monetize this content is usually somewhat nicely produced, very organized, structured and tied to our curriculum, specifically for education. Now can you produce that with recorded webinars? Yeah, actually a lot of our clients come to us with, hey, look, we have these recorded Zoom calls that we've been using for content, but we need something that doesn't look like so but you can find a future. So it's, there's videos arranged. It's definitely our favorite medium. But again, you have everything that could be a TikTok video that's 30 seconds. Very quick for something a little more structured, like I would say, LinkedIn learning, which in my mind what they're doing has been the best for a while. Like I love the structure, very effective in terms of combining passive learning with interactive and it's, it's what people are willing to pay for. And actually that's a good point too, because I think. If you look at what people are willing to pay for in terms of content, just look at the biggest companies out there. Skillshare, LinkedIn, learning. Most content monetization sites. They know what sells. They know what companies are willing to pay for. They know what their audience wants. And it's really rare that you're going to see cell phone footage there. You want to see, let's say, cell phone footage or recorded. I mean, some associations still are selling access to recorded webinars or Zoom calls. But that, again, I just got off a call where they said, we don't want to have this type of content because our truck drivers won't respond to it. So yeah, I mean, I wouldn't even watch it. And honestly, I'm, I'm I designed this because I have a terrible attention span. Like I've, I struggle to finish a four minute video like it's and I and that's me skipping. Okay, I got it. I got it. I'm one of those like 2.5 audible speed guys while watching because I need to multitask. And I think. Like, can you but can you go to the movie theater and be engaged? Oh yeah, easily. The video is clearly the best vehicle for storytelling, and that's what you need. I know the what are the main tools out there storyline captivate. Like you can tell a story in those products, but can you keep people engaged for an hour? Right when they're clicking next or. And that's where I think people struggle with video. It's I think we're stumbling into or you've introduced let's not say stumble you're very introduced like what is the crux? Of the. Of the learning, you know, the crux. This is the main problem that we have to solve. Or I guess let's let me let me characterize it positively. This is the business opportunity for, you know, universities, for corporations, for entrepreneurs, for whomever. Is understanding that that combination of. The need for micro, you know, the need for immediacy, but at the same time, the need for storytelling and quality. Right. And finding that that perfect Venn mix for your audience because you're MIT now, they're like the you know, the Reddit community is not going to need the same kind of quality and sort of depth as yeah, you know, a community of physicists or a community of, you know, microbiologists or other, you know, others who are really interested in a particular topic. Right. And so it's it's it's knowing it comes back to all these sort core principles of knowing your audience, you know, understanding the form that you're going to be actually presenting your material in. What's your ultimate outcome with that? With the with the content? Is it just credibility or are you actually passing information, those kinds of things? Right. I'm I'm going to pause and get your reaction to what I just said. Yeah. And I definitely big fan of storytelling, incorporating it to Microlearning as much as you can, but also it depends on the content, right? I mean, if you're dealing with the very engineering based corporate content, there's it's kind of difficult to tie in the story to that. Mm hmm. Now, the question is, what can you get people to finish? Right. Like, how do you keep them engaged long enough? How do you, in a way, respect them so they take the time to actually sit through your course. And again, there's different things you can do. And for us, are vehicles making sure that the video is engaging in terms of speed, length and then, of course, the amount of movements. So it's we we've produced videos that were and we'll talk to clients. Let's just say they come in with cybersecurity content that's very technical in. Sometimes the responses. And again, this is not me pushing video or selling it when I'm talking to them, but they'll say, Hey, look, this is very technical. It's not going to be a good vehicle, but it's going to be a good content for for video then. What else would you want it to be? Would you want it to be scripted or like a just text that they read, at least with this format? It's something a little more comfortable. Let's keep the engaging stories, the fun stories, the things that you read, because I think video has a power to at least because it's a little more designed for an easier user experience. It makes boring content better. Now, if you have a fun story that hooks people, keep it up, keep it tech space like there's now it would be an awesome video. Like, I mean, there's a lot of things you can do with pacing different frames and shots that get people excited that even within a skater alone get people pumped. But if you're trying to keep the balance there, I would say keep boring content for video and then actually keep keep the fun content, the things that naturally have stories. Keep that text based because it are a naturally has that appeal. Mm hmm. What's the you know, I know we wanted to talk about. Where you're going or, you know, you're like, we're basically focusing on how do we get to that content that's relevant for your client or your learner or whomever. Talk to me about the different places where I. Correct me if I'm wrong. You're mostly focused in corporate clients, business clients, those kinds of things. Juxtapose that to me with an academic audience, a truly academic audience, where you either have adult learners, you know, sort of soon to be adult learners or, you know, non adult learners like are we? It. Are those same principles? Do they apply across all of these genres or. Are we really struggling right now in this conversation with the corporate learner who is pressed for time, who doesn't really want to feel like a student? They want you know, they want the knowledge they want to get in and out. Again, let me leave it there for you. So our true niche is video microlearning, and that creates some problems for us as a business because. We service a lot of different industries. A lot. Most of them being in the corporate space. Right. So you can say you'll you'll see on our site, but there's a very specific corporate portion just for them, because that's how we focus. We actually have been working with a lot more innovative universities, people who care about their brand in terms of content. The issue is on the academic side, and we've been to conferences where we've had Booth as they get excited, but there's just too much administrative work, but if anything. You have these programs that people are paying 30, $40,000 a year for, and they're recording like my wife, for example. And it's it's kind of disappointing. Like she thinks she's paying about $20,000 a year for an MBA program and the recording webinars and reusing these old boring content tapes. And then they have a different instructor that says, okay, that's the content and this is an MBA program. And it's it drives me crazy because if anything like that, that's a lot of money that people are paying. And it's it's almost like you're just being dismissive of their time, half asking this content. So it's a little criminal, isn't it, where it's just like it's like the professor to show up and be like, hey, this is the same video I used, you know, five years ago or ten years ago. And it's like. It's like. Come on, map your game a little. You know, like, like like it's 20, 22, almost 20, 23. Like, let's let's get in the get in the game here. And there are some innovative universities out there. One of them, Johns Hopkins there. We've started working with a few departments out there that are trying to scale up their content production. And it's great because they reach out to us when they're internal teams at capacity, which this is a common issue across every industry operates on just the corporate space where instructional designers are ready to say it's universities where they're in structural design team has to service an entire university. So it's, oh. Sure, you got a thousand professors and you got three instructional designers. I mean, at the end of the day, you're basically. Are almost committing a crime there because you're going to have all of these requests. And then what happens then? And then the professor gets frustrated because they don't get they don't get served or what they get served is half ass. And then they end up having this poor opinion about great, what, you know, what grade in instructional design could be. It's this. It's a real it's a real problem, really. I mean, there are some good examples out there, not even the ones I'm working with. I think Florida International University, they have an innovation department that's focused on producing, engaging content. And what's great about universities is the fact that sometimes they'll throw money at this where they're producing like the peak of innovation in terms of simulations, 3D, VR stuff where you can actually interact with a lot of content. The issue is it's not necessarily virtual and you have to show up to a certain place to use that. And then also it's it's a little expensive to produce, but so there are universities out there doing cool stuff. But I just see as especially if it's evergreen to put a little more effort and time into it, because it does matter for people. People look at the content. You watch even this video. I mean, is that something you're going to try to monetize or is it something that's more of a content marketing portion? Right. And there's a lot of general content marketing out there. So I think it just changes the standards of what's expected. Hundred percent. Absolutely. So what are your you know, give me a couple of good examples of if I come to you as a potential client and I say, look, here's a piece that I want to create. Like, do you have examples of great microlearning or great animation that you put on the table and say, look, here's, here's five examples of, of great stuff that you've produced or other people produce. Let's go down one of these past or how do you start that conversation? Well, it depends because. We have this truck, we have the struggle talking to our clients in terms of how do we categorize our work. And there's a lot of different types, right? There's the industry focus that there is a type of training content. There's the art style, there's the animation style. And. We have clients that reach out to us that say, hey, look, they know what they want. They want to produce whiteboard style videos that look like this, that teach this type of value oriented content. Or we will have an insurance company that reaches out to us and say, hey, look, we need develop compliance training for this specific audience. So the first thing we do is we're trying to show them what's possible as we identify the industry, identify the type of content, and then find examples for them. And then the cool thing about this, and unfortunately it's not ready is by next month this yeah, by next month we should have a very easy library of microlearning examples out there for you to see because I think that's missing in the industry is the fact that nobody knows, hey, what is either average to amazing stuff and what is it work like because right now and unfortunately a lot of good content is behind a gate. Right. You know, but the only thing you can compare it to is what's on YouTube are like ten and videos. So there are good companies out there doing amazing things and that's something I want to start highlighting a lot more. So to answer your question, we just start off with an industry. We figure out what their goals are, what their challenges are, and really break it down into what's the content strategy and how Microlearning video can be useful for you. Just compared like a TED Talk or you know, let's just use the TED Talk. I wouldn't necessarily call, you know, a 20 minute TED Talk. MICROLEARNING All right. You know, as opposed to like, you know, your one minute TikTok video or your Instagram real or those kind of thing it is. Are you saying microlearning in your mind? Like, what's that length look like? What does that you know? Is it you know, you know it when you see it? Yeah, nobody knows what it means. It's just it just gets people going. All right. I got a now. I have I don't I don't have a length for Microlearning. So we get that question all the time. What is the ideal length for this particular audience? And I'm like, I don't know. Like it, it depends on what you're trying to teach like this. And sometimes I'll joke and say two or 3 minutes, but it's, I don't know what to tell you because it really depends. We can show you like what's common. So far, the most common product, if we were to average a length of all of our videos is it's about 4 minutes. So now. Which is much longer than my mind like I would, you know, the universe is like you just mentioned, you mentioned the truck drivers, you know, earlier that just kind of stuck in my head. I'm just thinking, you know, this is a universe of people who probably, you know, they're driving along and then they're taking their 20 minute break, you know, every every couple of hours and whatnot. You know, they hop on TikTok, they hop on Instagram, and they're just they're being fed that that universe of one minute clips. And so as is 4 minutes even too long, I don't know. Who knows. Yeah. I mean and it also depends that that particular client, they're actually trying to monetize some of it. So it's it's hard for them to sell packages of content where they have like hundreds of one minute tik tok video. So be kind of a bit of a challenge for them. But I, I come from the generation that where 4 minutes was a good feeling, but now apparently you have Gen Z and a lot of everyone's being, uh, everyone's getting used to shorter and shorter, which is true because yesterday I actually cooked, I cooked Valdez, which is like a mexican dish, and I learned it from a 45/2 TikTok video. Did you actually learn it? Okay, so this is a conversation I had on the other end. So did the video actually teach you or did it? Did it motivate you to then go find either the recipe or the bigger, you know, like the bigger video or or the bigger recipe somewhere and. No, no, no. I mean, like, I actually I think the best videos are motivational. Right. If if if you really want your learning video to be effective, you have to change the behavior actions. So even if it was mostly motivational, I would say that's the best thing. That is one of the best learning videos you can have. Just because my behavior shifted, I'm doing something and that's a success. Okay, that's it. Like, yeah, I guess the the interesting. We were at an earlier conversation. I can't remember if it was Mark last off or. And by the way, he's my hero. I love Marc off this is. The other day. He'll he'll he'll like another now he's fantastic when I encourage everybody if you're listening to the recording of this or anything go go check out that episode, too. He needs a kick in the pants, man. LinkedIn tells me whatever Marc lasts off comments and other people stuff because he's very direct. He's fun, and he he tells the truth. So big fan of that guy. Sara, please continue. No worries. I was just. I can't remember. It's Marc Glass off. There's another known gentleman named Josh Cavalier. Both of them had really great conversations around doing video, and I can't remember which one of them said. At the end of our conversation we were talking about. TikTok and reels being videos that are is essentially motivational. And I agree with you that if I am jazzed by a particular creator and I'm feeling like I'm attached to them, like they somehow they they grab my attention, that's great. But what we found was are these the proposition was so many people don't take that next step to then either monetize or take you to the actual learning content, right? Where it's like, hey, here's this great flounder and I'm sure, you know, here's the fold, here's the thing, here's the frying, here's the here's the beans, you know. But okay, you need to have that next step for the true amateur who is living in Poughkeepsie, who doesn't have any idea. They're just this is the first time I ever see a float. And they do think that while it's great, so you've got to take them to that next step, right? And so that's what I was kind of wondering in your experience, do you just know enough about flatters that you were ready, you had all the stuff ready or did you have to go? Fine. Okay. Here's the here's the ingredients I need. Here's the step by step. I love this conversation because it's combining Mexican food and e-learning and hey. Bebo. And see that they may go, man, come on. Man, I'm jealous of you. So congrats. And so what's the jump into my closet experience? Because it's it's tied to the content. I've actually never made one before, so I've before this video, I never made one. I saw it. Now, am I an entry? I wouldn't say 100% entry level, but I've been working with the company. Let's just say I'm working with the company for a year. I kind of know of the process, but I know the components. So in this case. All right, I get the concept of how to make salsa. I know frying is, but this video just showed me the sequence of how I should do it. And then I said, you know what? I can do that with everything I have here in the fridge later. Let's give that a shot. So it walk me through. It was actually a very detailed process video that was effective because while I was cooking, I pulled up the same video and I press play and I said, okay, great, this is what I have to do now. This is what he's doing. And again, very powerful video and it was under 45 seconds. And I go, I'll figure out how to send a link to everybody. But I think the. Try to remember that I am, by the way. Right now is feverishly looking for flounders on TikTok. What? The funny thing, too, is it was a Tik Tok video on Instagram just because, of course, that's how our Instagram explanation. But I'll find the video and if you're trying to make photos, it's it's very simple. And it's for me whose I would say somewhat entry level if I know how to cook. But it was it was enough. So I didn't have any other type of content I was able to explore, go through this process on my own. And then again, it, it was stimulating. It got me excited where I actually felt confident to do it, where I would say that I learned more from actually doing it. But it was a type of passive learning that gave me the motivation, at least the know how. These are the steps that I have to. Fantastic. Well, then this leads me to my next question to that where. And I think it's a it's a broader topic. So where did that video find you or at what moment? So was it just that perfect moment where he was almost dinnertime anyway and you were flipping through or you purposely looking for things to cook and eat or did? Was that. And so my question really is. In your experience as you're creating and working with clients, are you having the conversation of We need to produce stuff that can sort of just be introduced in that flow of work?

Or are you saying are most people saying, look, we want our employees or our learners to take specific time out and say, hey, look, it's 3: 33:54

00 on Thursday. I had booked this time to go learn like, do you see where I'm going with that question? Like, what? What are you finding is happening more and more? We're seeing that both both are happening. So what our clients, they still like the asynchronous structured content, something you could find on the albums. But instead of being a one hour scrum compliant storyline course that's not necessarily accessible, they're opting to break it up into 21, 20 minute sorry, 23 minute MICROLEARNING videos. A good example recently was a client that was producing customer onboarding training, so they had courses that were very structured. That's at 20 mark loading videos about 3 minutes each and really simple, easy user experience. You hop out of the course, you watch video, interact, watch video, interact, watch the video, interact. But they designed it this way. So their customer success, customer success team could actually be sending these Vimeo links to clients when there were issues or it was they were developing assets that. Where there is structured learning content, but then also were very accessible after the fact because when you're trying to solve a problem, you're not going to remember the training you went through two or three months ago. So you need either a library where it's accessible and actually most all of us have that option. You can easily add search. There's a keyword function in there that brings up a very specific Microlearning video that you're trying to find. Or in this case, they would ask a customer success team that, Hey, look, I'm having this problem. And the team, they had to put in emails as well as video links already incorporated them incorporating. So it's relatively easy to do and I think that's how they achieve both because it was something that had structure but then also was very accessible. And for this specific example, I was not looking for faster videos. I think it was just a spur of the moment like. But it was one of those what you're right, it was one of those motivational pieces of content where I came across them. I said, You know what? I can do this. And I would, yeah, I'm going to try it. So now I know exactly where it is and when I'm trying to make blocks, even though like I know the recipe, the video was effective, the process was effective. I know where to find it, the recipe, so to speak. Hmm. So you've you've used the term accessible a couple of times, which I find really because and correct me if I'm wrong, I think you're you're you're using that term not in sort of, hey, how do we make this accessible to compliance and. Ada Yeah. Yeah, exactly. To the narrative or see neurodiverse individuals and whatnot. But you're talking about a great topic. I again, I think Marc and Josh brought it up as well. The friction like how do you remove friction from the learning process? And one of the huge things is, you know, how much content is sitting in either in in L'oms or, you know, even on somebody just sort of feed, you know, like, hey, like how many times have you clicked, darling? And you put it in a save later or you put it in and you just never you'll never go back to it. And then how do I find that? Talk to me about how you work with clients to remove friction from the learning process, like or from the learning moment. So that when you have a learner who has that, Oh, I need to make floaters tonight, you know exactly how to get there and find it. Or, you know, Hey, this engine just broke down and we need to know what to do, etc.. We encourage them to have content that they can easily host on their alums as well as off of their all of us. That's the problem with that is they won't be able to gather very specific data if it's off their of us. Right. I mean, you don't have the tracking platforms here. Now, there's tools like Wistia where you could essentially see how many time a video is being viewed. But if you really want to make it accessible, you need to make it one click away. So there's a lot of our clients reach out to us because they're going through this digital transformation process where they've spent hundreds of thousands, or they're going to spend hundreds of thousand dollars on an element and that they're really focused on learning experience. So most of them have this feature where you have structured courses or you have the option to have essentially a resource bank where you can search and find out, almost feel like a Google. So if if you're all of us has that option, it's it's usually a little easier because if they're trying to figure out how to do something. They're probably going to try to YouTube for especially developers if you talk to the developer as soon as they run into a problem, Google or YouTube. So if you can make your platform feel. Like something very similar to what everyone's used to. That's the best case scenario. That way you have the structured concept, but if you have something that's accessible, that's a search bar away, that's even better. And then, of course, in that case, we're training examples. We were actually telling them to email the link out. Now it does solve. I mean, like they wouldn't be able to gather data on it, but they could tell if they watched the video. And then also it's solve the problem they're now learning. Managers probably won't like that approach because you're not necessarily calling or gathering the data to determine was this video completed or what type of results that it produced. But again, somebody had an itch and it was able to solve or scratch that problem. I kind of have to direct like. So I want to go a little further down that rabbit hole because you brought it up of. As for the learning managers that you're working with and. And I want to say this in the nicest way. How much? Of understanding the effectiveness of learning material is. Truly used and how much is sort of lip service like? We we collect a lot of data in the online learning space, right? In whatever, whatever format you want to say. I mean, in terms of clicks, watches, views, opens, you know, whatever. Like, how much of it is lip service and how much it is? Oh, wow. Hey, we really noticed this video sucks. It's not effective. Take it down. Put a new one up or find a new, new path. Again. I leave it there for you, my friend. I think instructional designers and learning managers truly care about the effectiveness of the content. That's something that they're excited about. If they had the option, they would iterate videos. They would ever iterate content based off of. How much it was being viewed, where people were stopping, like in Egypt, any type of friction that they saw throughout the course. What we see with a lot of our clients is that there's always new initiatives, new priorities that they can pull from. I mean, you're dealing with. A content strategy that's always growing and there's always different types of fire. So unfortunately, we don't necessarily see the amount of revisions or changes or updates to contents. We're actually even offered it as a service once where we said, Hey, look, will edit this as many times as you guys want to just to see if anybody would take it and the ones that did never used it and then the ones that didn't offer it, they actually knew that, hey, look, I mean, we're probably going to sit with this for a year and a half before we decide to update it again. So they're okay with it. Now, when it comes to data, the issue is you have two different types of metrics. We call them, we break it down it at least for us, we break it down into we've metrics and like metrics, lead metrics are very easy to track. Of course, completion rates, surveys based off the content, right? The type of interactions, everything you can track on the elements we see as a lead metric. Now the lag metrics are the shifts in behavior. Fortunately, that's what everyone cares about. But there's no way. I mean, you have to be very intentional with how you structure your training in the follow up, in the stories after. And at that point, that's where you're actually bothering front line workers to see like, hey, did you or did they actually change anything? Did they learn the material? That's where the gold is because that information is very hard to track. So we we always try to set up our projects with two metrics, right? What are your lead metrics and what are your lack metrics? And when you're going to come back to actually review both of them. And one of my favorite organizations out there is actually Brandon Hall, because they have an award system that's very focused on lab metrics. So to win in one of these awards, you actually need to see a shift in behavior. None of these like vanity metrics, about course completions and about. Yeah. The customer service. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's, it's easy for us to develop something like that's really easy for we can get people excited. It's easy to get people excited through video. Like a good story, a good script and decent pacing. And people feel. That's what's great about videos. I mean, like I saw a 45/2 pickup video that I was making for office the next day. So video is an easy medium to to get people excited over. But the trick is making sure that you shift their behavior after. Mm hmm. I mean, that's. That is the crux of the entire learning, you know, proposition. Excellent. I want to round out our conversation for the next 5 minutes or so. Just I want to juxtapose or I want to get your opinion on. Wind animation versus video. You touched on it a little earlier in the thing, but I kind of wanted to just get clear about it. Like, what are the reasons why you would use animation or are there clear criteria that say, hey, look, this this is actually much better suited to. Animation cartoon rather than like a live video human. What are those criteria that people should think about? So I'm on my own. I mean, we have about 80 animators in house and we're producing a lot of cons, a lot of animated content. But I love live action video. If if all of our learning content could be a soap opera, that would be that. I would watch that. I mean, look at know about telenovela. I mean, it's it's it's something that's exciting. So. And I bring it up this way because there's different factors, right? You can have thought leadership content or something that's very mechanical in nature where you have to see. But a lot of times when it comes to live action video or animation, it just boils down to logistics. Is this something that you can film now? The trucking example that I was just talking to you about. They were it was funny. There were producing safety videos and they were saying, well, we can't necessarily film people doing things we don't want them to do. So it's like there's logistical concerns of filming people not paying attention while driving. Right. It's only ever Adam Sandler. And this were a different medium we would had we'd had a great bit there. I don't know. And that's how you like if you have the capacity and resources to tell a story that way to get people engaged, that is the best. Again, I own an animation studio that specializes in MICROLEARNING and interactive, a bunch of other stuff, but I would say live action. Like people, like people that's it's something that can feel. But again. There are logistical concerns tied to execution. So, yes, there's there's things that animation is just better suited for, like if it's process oriented or like high level thought leadership, if you're explaining like the integration of data servers and you need some type of metaphor or an analogy. But at the end of the day, it just ties to what's more feasible in terms of logistics. Now, there are some examples where you do have flashbacks, video that's easier to produce. One very common product we've been noticing, actually, and it's something that's becoming more popular. It's a combination of live action host led videos with animation. So you still have an engaging, professionally developed video that feels comfortable. You see a host that you can connect with, but then when it comes to the content, it's a little more technical or we're discussing a process or something that you should be doing. It's easier to animate that portion. So we're seeing and we're combining a lot more live action with animation. Actually, I would say that's about half of our work. Excellent. Eric, as with all these conversations, I mean, 40 minutes has flown by for me. And, you know, we're kind of kind of coming to the place where we need to wrap things up. I want to ask you two questions. I want to. The first the second one is want to ask everybody. But talk to me for just a few minutes about where do you see? The next step in video. You and I had kind of had a little chuckle in the green room before this, and I want to make sure we touched on it. Where do you see virtual reality going? Where do you see like next what we might consider next level video experiences? Are those a reality that we're going to get to? Is this just another Second Life kind of stuff that I don't think it'll go the way of the dodo, but, you know, is it valuable for certain things? What's your opinion on it? And what do you where do you what's your prediction for the future? I don't necessarily have a timeline for when VR airs or even things like the metaverse are going to take off. I just know most of my friends, even younger people, Gen Z, don't necessarily have access to them. So video has been an accessible tool that's easy to use. It's very familiar. So I'm waiting for this shit to change now. Unfortunately, I just don't have an answer as to, Hey, look, this is something that's going to be popular the state for the meantime and at least for the next five years. It's it feels weird saying this because I feel biased, but video is king, right? So if it's it's it's what people prefer. People pay to have access to video, whether if it's educational entertainment. And again, I've seen some really cool Air VR stuff, but it's just not accessible. Like we're in the realm of virtual learning. You need to be able to access it when you're not on campus. In that case, for young people and again, I don't have a headset and this might be a weird question, but do you have a headset? In my house we have several. And so, I mean, but I have a I have a 14 year old son. So he's you know, he's he's like there. We should ask him that, because I think that's that that's who I think really knows when this is going to take off, because they're this is what they're growing up with. But I think everyone right now in the working force didn't necessarily grow up with headsets. Right. So it's. So it's still a thing. I think you're right. It's still a thing. Another thing you have to do in order to get there is that friction. Yeah. And it's it's not necessarily friction. It's just. And I think that that response is great because it's. What did you grow up with? Video What do you think I'm familiar with? It's going to be video. So I'm excited because if if you're a 14 year old son at the very familiar and they're spending a lot of time on different type of gaming systems in the VR space, that's going to be an exciting future because that's what they're familiar with. So until he's an active working professional now, actually, I would say until he is a majority of the active working professionals video is going to be the number one medium because it's it's what people are familiar with. Yeah, I think I mean, we definitely have another decade if not longer in before before it just becomes, you know, commonplace unless there's a radical shift like a Google Glass or something like that comes out where it's, hey, look, these are the glasses and, you know, it can actually just be transmitted there. Yeah. I mean, unless unless you're something really cool that surprises everybody and just takes off like wildfire. But even the Internet took 20, 30 years. It wasn't necessarily a quick transition. So even even when your son is 24, 25, 26, you'll have to understand that older millennials are going to be a majority of the workforce, and we're going to be looking down at these guys and being frustrated about their new innovative ideas. So you're exactly you're and we're the ones who will be making the decisions in a lot of cases still, although it would probably be women. You know, you and I are going the way of the dodo anyway. Last question for you is. Clearly you're excited about everything that we've talked about here, but is there anything special that you are particularly jazzed about, excited about for the next know short terms with six months to 12 months out. A new shiny object could be a new software system, could be another organization, could be something anything in the e-learning universe that you'd like to give your either a shout out to or something that you're like, I'm super jazzed about this next thing. No. No. I never said no. Yeah, I know, I, I mean, I, I mean, I, I get excited about everything, right? I'll tell you, like, hey, look, this is a cool learning experience. I have to. Say. I'm a very excitable person. So is there anything specific in terms of technology or people? I well, technology, no. But what I am excited about is the changing control in terms of generation. Mm hmm. So millennials are starting to take the wheel, and again, they have higher standards in terms of content. So that's what I'm excited because that has a lot of different types of implications on how we see technology in the e-learning space. Like It's no longer going to be a burden to be innovative. And our generation is, I mean, like it's the ready for it. So I'm excited because I see a lot more control going to that group where or types of content, whether it's AR, VR things in the metaverse, even though I don't have access to any of those, I maybe I'll find the will like they're going to be a little more popular. There will be there will be a lot more experimentation with those things where before I was just dismissed. So I'm not necessarily excited about any particular technology, but just the shift in control. And again. Our company, I think or 98% of millennials that our company. So we're pretty excited to be to be ready for this type of innovation or where the industry goes. Fantastic Spirit. You are the chief ninja at Ninja Tropic. This has been a delightful conversation. I really, really appreciate you taking the time out of your day there in Phenix, and I wish you all the best and I hope that we'll be able to have another conversation sometime soon. Appreciate that. Thanks again, everyone, and have a great day. All right. Make sure to find that both of you. Absolutely. Cheers. Thanks again for joining me for the eLearn Podcast. Make sure you never miss an episode by subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts. Just just push. Subscribe on your player right now. And remember, you can join the conversation live on YouTube, Facebook and my LinkedIn feed every week. I hope to see you there. Thanks.